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RJFguitar's resto-mod - went offroad

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rjfguitar said:
I just put in 2 new o2 sensors that are the part number pf gave me. No closed loop.
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When I get home tonight I'll try and remember to look in my schematics to see which pins the o2 sensors should be connecting to and what color the wires are. It really sounds like the o2 sensors just aren't connected where the PCM is expecting them to be. maybe. :dunno:
 
You shouldn't have to diagnose this yourself, call PF and make them fix their mistakes. That's why you paid the extra $1400. You paid for a turnkey engine. This has not been turnkey.
 
rjfguitar said:
One thing to remember, my swap included extra stuff. While your list will have a guy up and running, it's a somewhat bare bones swap (which is fine if someone just wants to get an LS swap going).

My Doug Thorley tri-y ceramic headers were $700 alone. You didn't mention crossmember info. After doing this swap, I would do another PF crossmember (even though it's NOT bolt in and had to take the plasma cutter to mine) or build my own crossmember because having that extra clearance under the pan is good to have. I already had to pull my pan and it came out easy since I had lots of room.

If/When the 454 blows up in my K30, here is my plan.

Junk yard 5.3 with computer $700.
NEW wiring harness from someone like PF or BD turnkey. $700
headers $300-700
crossmember kit or DIY $20-300
adapter plates $60
fuel system $150
reprogram computer $100
misc parts $500

That is basically $3K. Now, factor in an extra $800 more to buy a 6L over the 5.3 and I could have done this for about $3800 for my K5 on my own without PF, and at this point completely wish I would have and had $1400 still in my pocket. At the time, when I was in a hurry and simply not interested in "pin outs, internet research, and wrecking yard runs." $1400 sounded like money WELL spent for a guy like me that is short on time. The rest is history. :haha:
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That is true. The extras will always add a good bit. Even things like electric fans and such can add a few bucks.
 
Chevy305 said:
You shouldn't have to diagnose this yourself, call PF and make them fix their mistakes. That's why you paid the extra $1400. You paid for a turnkey engine. This has not been turnkey.
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I completely agree. While they are pretty local to me, they are still 2 hours away. Right now I am swamped with work and there is no way I am going to be able to take a day to get the K5 to them any time soon. Probably not until June actually. Not to mention I have to haul it over there, which is not a problem, but rolling a 20,000lb rig down the road 200 miles costs money too. That is why I was willing to make a couple light stabs at trying to diagnose it myself (with the help of you guys, thanks!) and save myself some money, time, and down time that the K5 is going to sit until the trip can be made.
 
How about something a little more fun than problems.

My Edge Evolution CS installed.
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cockpit view
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An outside pic of the new tires and wheels.
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Things left to do:

1. Get this to PF or figure out myself to get the 02's working
2.Get it to trans shop, I do not have good line pressure on my TV cable. I have my bowtie OD kit all installed properly including the longer spring in the valve body. I need to let my trans guy check pressures.
3. CV style joint installed on my rear drive line. I have some vibration in the rear shaft in that throttle position where I am not coasting or under power while at highway speed. If I am in the power or fully coasting no vibs, just an annoying vib for a second or two in that power/coast transition. My rear shaft just has a 1350 u joint at both top and bottom. I believe installing a double cardin joint at the tcase should solve that problem.
 
I took a few pics of my o2 stuff. Hope this helps.

O2sensors2.jpg

This is the plug for the back sensors that I removed.

O2sensors3.jpg

Here is the front sensor plug that I am using.

O2sensors1.jpg

Schem I used to modify my wiring harness.

As I read the schem, your o2 sensors should be routed as follows:

bank1 sensor 1 pins: C1-29(tan), C1-69(ppl/wht), C2-72(blk/wht)
bank2 sensor 1 pins: C1-26(tan), C1-66(ppl), C2-74(lt grn)

You shouldn't have anything going to pins C1-25,65,28,68, C2-53,52.

If this isn't what you are seeing we may have found your problem. Remember though, mine is a 2003 so it's possible there is a difference between mine and yours.
 
Interesting. I have no C2 72 or 74. I have a C2 52.

29, 69, 26, 66 on mine all match the colors of your diagram.
 
rjfguitar said:
Interesting. I have no C2 72 or 74. I have a C2 52.

29, 69, 26, 66 on mine all match the colors of your diagram.
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No C2-53 either?

It sounds like they ran all of your o2 controls into 1 pin, but the wrong pin. I wonder what would happen if you moved C2-52 to C2-74
 
Finally had a day that I could run over to Gilroy with the K5 and get this open/closed loop problem addressed. The guys at PF were quick to jump on my K5 as soon as I got it off the trailer and found that since the engine was an '04, they had made an '04 harness for it using '04 oxygen sensors. The software in the computer was early 2000 so that it would function with the DBC throttle body and wouldn't work with the '04 o2 sensors. They changed the o2's to early 2000 style and right away we achieved closed loop. They also rode with me and road tuned it to cure my issue with it randomly drying at a stop sign, by bumping the idle up to around 750. I'm just glad it finally all done. :woot:
20150811_070923_zpsthhnjncv.jpg

20150811_152908_zpsmogigfge.jpg

20150811_105312_zpshucecqtq.jpg
 
rjfguitar said:
since the engine was an '04, they had made an '04 harness for it using '04 oxygen sensors. The software in the computer was early 2000 so that it would function with the DBC throttle body and wouldn't work with the '04 o2 sensors. They changed the o2's to early 2000 style and right away we achieved closed loop. They also rode with me and road tuned it to cure my issue with it randomly drying at a stop sign, by bumping the idle up to around 750.
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There are a few things there which are wrong.

A 2004 and early 2000 ECM / harness are different. The operating systems are totally different and the ECMs are different in total memory size. So you can not, without make a good door stop, burn an OS cross memory size platform. Yes they look the same. One is blue/red and the other is blue/green. One is basically a half meg system while the other is a whole meg. 2004 would have been blue/green 1 meg drive by wire. Which you can convert to drive by cable if the ecm still retains the IAC driver on board. Which would require a different OS that supports drive by cable, like a van. Which then leads to the next thing....

A gm 4 wire O2 can have a different plug but they are the same as long as the pinouts are the same. What changes is how the O2 heaters are controlled in the harness and ECM.

If I read correctly this is a stock engine with an older intake.... The dying thing is not correct and bumping the idle is masking something else. Could be bad injector data, coil dwell time wrong, incorrect IAC scaling.....

Not point fingers here, just a lot of incorrect data that does not progress the understanding of how to swap an LS.

Could you verify what ECM you have, color wise at the connectors?
 
Red and blue, and I meant early 2000's, like '01 or 02. My dying issue was with the manual trans tune and a lack of mph data to my ecm, I believe.
 
I didn't know you were running a manual trans with yours as well. Which one? What all is involved in tuning it for manual?

I'm glad you've finally got it working!

bumping the idle up to keep it from dying seems suspect to me too but I don't have any real experience other than mine.
 
rjfguitar said:
Red and blue, and I meant early 2000's, like '01 or 02. My dying issue was with the manual trans tune and a lack of mph data to my ecm, I believe.
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So with that said, as long as it was read blue the whole time there was no way to build an 04 harness for you.

With a manual tune how the idle air is controlled is different. What a lot of companies do is burn in a car tune then basic modify for a truck. Thats not the best way as airflow calculation is very very different between an LS1 and the LQ4. Starting with a proper truck manual tune would be best. Those are hard to come by as you can't just get them off a forum.... There are ways around it with the correct software and/or tuning knowledge.

Also, are you running a manual? This goes back to the airflow calculation when coming down to low RPM. If you are running a manual then you want the manual style tune in it but then again if you want full engine braking or decel fuel cutoff you would need speedo to trigger that. With an auto you have to account for the extra load the pump puts on the engine, that equals added airflow. With a manual, you get it...

Has the main base airflow been setup. As in adjust the throttle blade until the correct IAC counts have been set?

A dying issue in LS engines is usually a lack of airflow all of a sudden. The air demand is greater than the airflow base command and the IAC can't react that fast. An idle command bump would open the IAC further but you are still relying on a system that takes time to react and adapt. There is logable idle trims for airflow correct, with a stock engine if these are not ZERO then you do not have enough base airflow. All of this is amplified when larger cams and displacement comes into play.

Ever notice how some LS engine run awesome wide open and then have issues down low. Idle hunt or the awesome engine die when you get in and out of the throttle quick. It all translates to base incorrect setup mechanically and electronically in the tune. Thats why the last thing I ever tune on an engine is the idle air and idle control. You have to have everything else dialed to even receive accurate logged info at idle.
 
Team208Motorsports said:
So with that said, as long as it was read blue the whole time there was no way to build an 04 harness for you.

With a manual tune how the idle air is controlled is different. What a lot of companies do is burn in a car tune then basic modify for a truck. Thats not the best way as airflow calculation is very very different between an LS1 and the LQ4. Starting with a proper truck manual tune would be best. Those are hard to come by as you can't just get them off a forum.... There are ways around it with the correct software and/or tuning knowledge.

Also, are you running a manual? This goes back to the airflow calculation when coming down to low RPM. If you are running a manual then you want the manual style tune in it but then again if you want full engine braking or decel fuel cutoff you would need speedo to trigger that. With an auto you have to account for the extra load the pump puts on the engine, that equals added airflow. With a manual, you get it...

Has the main base airflow been setup. As in adjust the throttle blade until the correct IAC counts have been set?

A dying issue in LS engines is usually a lack of airflow all of a sudden. The air demand is greater than the airflow base command and the IAC can't react that fast. An idle command bump would open the IAC further but you are still relying on a system that takes time to react and adapt. There is logable idle trims for airflow correct, with a stock engine if these are not ZERO then you do not have enough base airflow. All of this is amplified when larger cams and displacement comes into play.

Ever notice how some LS engine run awesome wide open and then have issues down low. Idle hunt or the awesome engine die when you get in and out of the throttle quick. It all translates to base incorrect setup mechanically and electronically in the tune. Thats why the last thing I ever tune on an engine is the idle air and idle control. You have to have everything else dialed to even receive accurate logged info at idle.
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You pretty much just described what is wrong with my 6.0 ls tune for my buggy.

I have an red and blue ls harness, lq4, and i know it has a ls1 tune of some sort.

It dies on occasion, fuel feel loaded up on others and it general just is not right.

There is another local that had band aid wrong parts matching as well with a motor from pacific.
 
Well then my idle air and idle control must not be set right. Yes, it would die if I blipped the throttle as it was returning back, and almost back down to an idle. It would stuter, drop rpm way down, and then would normally recover back to 600rpm, but sometimes it would die completely.

I am supposed to be running a manual tune because I am using a 700R4 auto. Isn't a manual tune always used when using an older non electronic trans?

Regardless, it's running damn good. Drove it to work this morning and watching my Edge CS Evolution switch from loop status "open" to "close" was a sight for sore eyes. It wanting to die after a throttle blip is gone now, from the raised idle.

Only issue I am having really is that at full throttle in the upper RPM's Im getting a few pops. PF thinks I am running out of fuel and thought I mounted my inline pump too far forward, and that moving it back really close to the tank should solve it.
 
Just tried to call you Team208. I'd like to get some more info on that stock LQ4 that you got 421HP out of. Pricing.
 
rjfguitar said:
Just tried to call you Team208. I'd like to get some more info on that stock LQ4 that you got 421HP out of. Pricing.
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Sorry, out and about around something loud today. I can give you a call later on this evening. Whats a good time for you?
 
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