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Sad Suburban
- Thread starter BadDog
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- #onionclub
Fools errand trying to resurrect an otherwise nice lean Suburban brutally butchered by a conversion company.
This mess actually started with buying a mil-surplus 6.2L HMMWV pull-out from the turbo upgrade program from a local friend who had originally bought it, but decided to go another direction. Condition was unknown when I bought it, but it came with a fresh professionally build civi injection pump, turbo, an old BAE turbo manifold and some other bits and pieces, plus a donor block, and a LOT of extra chaff accumulated from several donors. It was a gamble, but I figured the rebuilt pump and turbo largely offset the purchase price.
Once I got it on an engine stand, I cobbled up enough of a harness to crank it on the stand, and it ran fantastic! As you will soon see, that was about the end of the good news. New quick-heat glows were added, but nothing else.
Some time later I got around to switching the civi oil pan, pick-up, etc. While I was in there, I checked the bearings and found the crank in great condition, but the bearings were starting to show some wash with a few scores. So I thought, "Eh, I'll just put in new bearings while I'm in here." And down the rabbit hole I went. I checked the first main and #1 cap bearings to confirm no undersize, and ordered a set of both. Only after I started installing them did I realize I had a rouges gallery of undersize shells, most of which were mismatched with their partner. That's when I learned that these motors were "select fit" for bearings, supposedly because of rear seal design problems preventing a good line bore. So, sometime later after ebay provided a selection of undersized bearings in 0.0005 and 0.001 under, I grew intimately familiar with plastigage and my torque wrench as I re-select fit each and every one of those bastages. And I found that some of the factory shells were better within and slightly to the tight side of spec with the next 0.00025 under shell. No idea if it really mattered, but that's what I did.
There were lots of other fun discoveries as I worked my way through the rest of the motor and it's conversion to turbo, but that's jumping ahead quite a bit, so I'll stop that line of discussion here for now...
Once I got it on an engine stand, I cobbled up enough of a harness to crank it on the stand, and it ran fantastic! As you will soon see, that was about the end of the good news. New quick-heat glows were added, but nothing else.
Some time later I got around to switching the civi oil pan, pick-up, etc. While I was in there, I checked the bearings and found the crank in great condition, but the bearings were starting to show some wash with a few scores. So I thought, "Eh, I'll just put in new bearings while I'm in here." And down the rabbit hole I went. I checked the first main and #1 cap bearings to confirm no undersize, and ordered a set of both. Only after I started installing them did I realize I had a rouges gallery of undersize shells, most of which were mismatched with their partner. That's when I learned that these motors were "select fit" for bearings, supposedly because of rear seal design problems preventing a good line bore. So, sometime later after ebay provided a selection of undersized bearings in 0.0005 and 0.001 under, I grew intimately familiar with plastigage and my torque wrench as I re-select fit each and every one of those bastages. And I found that some of the factory shells were better within and slightly to the tight side of spec with the next 0.00025 under shell. No idea if it really mattered, but that's what I did.
There were lots of other fun discoveries as I worked my way through the rest of the motor and it's conversion to turbo, but that's jumping ahead quite a bit, so I'll stop that line of discussion here for now...
Thanks. I've been around, just haven't posted much. After my knees forced me to abandon my beloved truggy rock rig, and my kids were moved out starting their own lives, I mostly got interested in other things (machining, 2nd amendment items, home projects, grandkids, etc) for some years. I had both knees replaced in 2016, so feeling more like doing this stuff again, which is what prompted me for one more farewell build to ride off into the sunset. Just my luck it's turning into one of the biggest crap fests of my life... 
This is the motor as of this moment. Mainly just waiting on me to get motivated to weld up a custom cross over from mandrel sections, and then install.
Don't mind that custom crossmember down there, it's hanging there to route the cross-over around, which not only fits much better and with more clearance than the Banks unit, but also allows me to use a stock OEM lower radiator hose. It also keeps the heat away from my fluid-damper, which I found out has a very low heat threshold for terminal damage. It will also have a floated heat shield between it and the oil pan. An added benefit is the ability to drop out the cross member to allow in-frame removal of the oil pan (hopefully never needed).
Don't mind that custom crossmember down there, it's hanging there to route the cross-over around, which not only fits much better and with more clearance than the Banks unit, but also allows me to use a stock OEM lower radiator hose. It also keeps the heat away from my fluid-damper, which I found out has a very low heat threshold for terminal damage. It will also have a floated heat shield between it and the oil pan. An added benefit is the ability to drop out the cross member to allow in-frame removal of the oil pan (hopefully never needed).
Here are a few pics from the day when I picked up this Sad Sub. I bought it off this site, here is the link to the post.
https://ck5.com/forums/threads/85-2500-burb-body-stuff.330511/#post-3812236
As you may read on that thread, bringing it home on that u-haul trailer was quite exciting to say the least. Relevant excerpt quoted below. Some of you may recognize that orange hood in the second photo, and yes there he is in all his glory in the third. Couldn't have gotten half the progress I have made without his help.
https://ck5.com/forums/threads/85-2500-burb-body-stuff.330511/#post-3812236
As you may read on that thread, bringing it home on that u-haul trailer was quite exciting to say the least. Relevant excerpt quoted below. Some of you may recognize that orange hood in the second photo, and yes there he is in all his glory in the third. Couldn't have gotten half the progress I have made without his help.
Second photo was picking up the front cap from a storage unit after getting the main carcass. It was also my attempt at feeling out the load, and whether the tongue weight issue was going to be a problem. It actually towed fine on surface streets. Boy, I missed my estimate on that one. I knew better, but didn't want to try again a different day, and finding a better trailer (or etc) ... 
Ultimately, that's how we got home from picking it up (30+ minutes by freeway with no traffic). And also fortunately, Nick knows traffic patterns and streets like nobody else from his day job, so with his routing, we got home in about after just over an hour driving.
That third photo was at a title shop where they refused to process unless the vehicle had all 4 tires on the ground. As you see it was us using Nick's winch for the second time loading it back on the trailer.
Right after that, Nick had to head home to fix a power steering pump that got damaged holding the brakes while winching. He offered to go on with me, but I had already taken enough time, and now he had a busted PS pump, so I declined further help. And so then I got the fun of unloading a sub with no brakes by myself. Ye-haw! Get outa my way!!! Fortunately no further damage done, but the "fun" was just beginning...
Ultimately, that's how we got home from picking it up (30+ minutes by freeway with no traffic). And also fortunately, Nick knows traffic patterns and streets like nobody else from his day job, so with his routing, we got home in about after just over an hour driving.That third photo was at a title shop where they refused to process unless the vehicle had all 4 tires on the ground. As you see it was us using Nick's winch for the second time loading it back on the trailer.
Right after that, Nick had to head home to fix a power steering pump that got damaged holding the brakes while winching. He offered to go on with me, but I had already taken enough time, and now he had a busted PS pump, so I declined further help. And so then I got the fun of unloading a sub with no brakes by myself. Ye-haw! Get outa my way!!! Fortunately no further damage done, but the "fun" was just beginning...
After I got it home and unloaded without killing myself or totaling both rigs, I gutted the inside of all the stuff stored/hauled in there, and then proceeded to gut all the conversion mess. Only then did I realize that my clean unmolested square body had been gang jumped when it began it's life.
The shag carpet and side linings had been just glued straight on with some kind of gorilla glue looking stuff, nearly impossible to get off other than little pieces. The door panels had been fully butchered with hardwood panels glued-n-screwed on, and the window switches, including the rear switch on the dash, were literally hot glued in because the snap mechanism would no longer function with all that crap in the way. Speaking of that dash, more glued-n-screwed wood. And let's not forget all 4 generic captains chairs with 4 x 1/2" holes each just run through the single layer sheet floor with 4-6 fender washers stacked up underneath to serve as reinforcements. I had seen those on initial inspection, but the magnitude didn't hit me till I took them out. And you remember seeing those little cocktail removable tables they always had between the chairs? Just blow a hole in the trans tunnel using an air chisel (I kid you not, the ripped "fingers" were curled down into the trans tunnel) to sink a socket through the hole, held in my 10 wood screws with what looked like urethane window sealer goobered up between. Big cheap 6x9 speakers were mounted in the side panels much like the table socket in the floor, and yes, the ragged extra material was just bent away inside rather than remove it. And the headliner? Glued material on thin sheets of plywood attached to the roof ribs with at least 50 pop rivets. And it goes on, that's just the worst of it. I'll add the pictures I took during the process below for reference without further commentary...
The shag carpet and side linings had been just glued straight on with some kind of gorilla glue looking stuff, nearly impossible to get off other than little pieces. The door panels had been fully butchered with hardwood panels glued-n-screwed on, and the window switches, including the rear switch on the dash, were literally hot glued in because the snap mechanism would no longer function with all that crap in the way. Speaking of that dash, more glued-n-screwed wood. And let's not forget all 4 generic captains chairs with 4 x 1/2" holes each just run through the single layer sheet floor with 4-6 fender washers stacked up underneath to serve as reinforcements. I had seen those on initial inspection, but the magnitude didn't hit me till I took them out. And you remember seeing those little cocktail removable tables they always had between the chairs? Just blow a hole in the trans tunnel using an air chisel (I kid you not, the ripped "fingers" were curled down into the trans tunnel) to sink a socket through the hole, held in my 10 wood screws with what looked like urethane window sealer goobered up between. Big cheap 6x9 speakers were mounted in the side panels much like the table socket in the floor, and yes, the ragged extra material was just bent away inside rather than remove it. And the headliner? Glued material on thin sheets of plywood attached to the roof ribs with at least 50 pop rivets. And it goes on, that's just the worst of it. I'll add the pictures I took during the process below for reference without further commentary...
Just getting started
Headliner glued on plywood riveted to roof ribs. Oh, and plenty of glue ON the ribs too. Lots of fun was had...
Side panel, partly cleaned.
High quality custom table mounting bracket
For cleaning the floor, I pressure washed out as much as I could. Pressure washer was starting to remove paint, and STILL I had glued on crap that wouldn't come off.
I did manage to get a lot more of the loose out of the back, and it looks better than this, but that glue will be there forever.
After that pressure washing, that was all the fun I could stand, so good enough. Then off to get a shower as most of what came off was now covering me. The dog thought sasquatch had come to visit...
I did manage to get a lot more of the loose out of the back, and it looks better than this, but that glue will be there forever.
After that pressure washing, that was all the fun I could stand, so good enough. Then off to get a shower as most of what came off was now covering me. The dog thought sasquatch had come to visit...
This is the table plug hole cleaned up and patched. You can also see the plugs I put in. There must have been 20+ 1/2" holes all over the place. So I got a big bag of rubber plugs made for such things, and siliconed them into the holes in the floor. You can see a few in this pic.
Once the miss of the floor boards was cleaned up and re-sealed, it was time to address the interior.
It started finding a complete interior. I finally had a little luck with the project when we found a complete unmolested OEM garage kept primo interior in a '90 Sub with dead motor. The guy was trying to piece it out on CL, but hadn't sold anything yet. So I made a deal for $600 to remove the complete matching interior from end to end, plus rear AC front to back and ancillary related parts, and he took it.
Again, luck was with me in Nick and his boy going along to help out, it would have been a mess without their help. As luck would have it, I wasn't feeling well, and it was a hot day, but with so much logistics involved, including being over 45 minutes away, I wasn't going to try to reschedule. We arrived fairly early in the morning with tools plus my truck and the mosesburb to haul parts. In about 2 hours, we went from a Suburban it looked like you could crank and drive home, to an completely empty husk totally bare inside. With Nick's expert advice, I brought zip-locks so all fasteners were bagged-n-tagged. Around noon we were headed home.
Unfortunately, the LONG rear AC lines had a heavy load of die in them (low point) that I didn't give enough consideration to. And my first attempt at taping/sealing the ends didn't hold when the die/oil wanted out. The only place we could think to haul those long things was on top of Nicks 'burb; with the dry white top. We redid the ends with paper towel wraps inside zip-lock wrapped with electrical tape to prevent further mess, but I still feel bad about that fluorescent yellow/green stain that resulted. Not sure how he did it, but he seems to have gotten it cleared up. Sorry Nick...
That same day we went by a local commercial cloth purveyor and picked up a roll of heavy industrial felts. I had a really good OEM front row underlay, but both second row sets I had were just crumbling junk. So the heavy felt was installed under the second row.
I really wish I could interleave photos like we used to, but I guess at least this way the photos won't go away like what happened with Photobucket.
It started finding a complete interior. I finally had a little luck with the project when we found a complete unmolested OEM garage kept primo interior in a '90 Sub with dead motor. The guy was trying to piece it out on CL, but hadn't sold anything yet. So I made a deal for $600 to remove the complete matching interior from end to end, plus rear AC front to back and ancillary related parts, and he took it.
Again, luck was with me in Nick and his boy going along to help out, it would have been a mess without their help. As luck would have it, I wasn't feeling well, and it was a hot day, but with so much logistics involved, including being over 45 minutes away, I wasn't going to try to reschedule. We arrived fairly early in the morning with tools plus my truck and the mosesburb to haul parts. In about 2 hours, we went from a Suburban it looked like you could crank and drive home, to an completely empty husk totally bare inside. With Nick's expert advice, I brought zip-locks so all fasteners were bagged-n-tagged. Around noon we were headed home.
Unfortunately, the LONG rear AC lines had a heavy load of die in them (low point) that I didn't give enough consideration to. And my first attempt at taping/sealing the ends didn't hold when the die/oil wanted out. The only place we could think to haul those long things was on top of Nicks 'burb; with the dry white top. We redid the ends with paper towel wraps inside zip-lock wrapped with electrical tape to prevent further mess, but I still feel bad about that fluorescent yellow/green stain that resulted. Not sure how he did it, but he seems to have gotten it cleared up. Sorry Nick...
That same day we went by a local commercial cloth purveyor and picked up a roll of heavy industrial felts. I had a really good OEM front row underlay, but both second row sets I had were just crumbling junk. So the heavy felt was installed under the second row.
I really wish I could interleave photos like we used to, but I guess at least this way the photos won't go away like what happened with Photobucket.
I still have to get the dash, side panels, and headliner dealt with, but this set of pics show that stage of the process ending in the rest of the interior being complete. I'll eventually get new covers for the front seats, everything else is in great shape.
After the bulk of the interior was in, my next project was swapping out the 3/4 ton axles. Nothing wrong with those, but I had the 1 ton's from under my K5 with a near new (if sun burnt) set of 35" BFG-AT-KOs, 4.56 gears, and lockers at both ends. Easy swap included the ~4" lift from the K5 as well as extended brake lines, bumps, etc.
My main concern was that the 6.2 and the 4.56 gears might not coexist too happily, particularly with my focus on mileage. That concern and attempting to offset the deep gears combined with the relative tread life of the 35" ATs (if they don't prove too sun baked) is the main reason I kept the 4" lift. If it turns out I don't like it (gearing, mileage, height, etc), the plan is to reduce the lift to 2-3" and go with more narrow 33" ATs, likely on 16" OEM steelies, probably with a gear change. I'll avoid cutting it until I get some street time to see how I like it with the 4.56 gears. If I go forward with that setup, I'll get some cut-out flares (anyone got a line?). Otherwise, I'll keep the stock fender openings. I still have to figure out what I'm doing with regard to shocks as well.
The other issue is the steering. The K5 had cross-over steering with a custom crossmember. The sub is getting a custom crossmember too, mainly to deal with the turbo crossover pipe (more later). But I'm thinking with the expedition focus of the sub, I'll keep the anti-sway bar, possibly with custom disconnects. I'll figure that out once it's mobile. But I'm not at all sure if I can get the crossover steering working with everything else. And the standard push-pull orientation actually has some solid points to recommend it for an expedition rig. Problem is, I have everything for cross over, but I don't have a drop arm and a spacer I'll need for the 4" lift with push-pull, so jury is still out on that decision.
At the same time I swapped the 1 ton axles under, I also swapped the stock '85 700R4/NP208 for my upgraded '90 700R4/NP241 with SYE. K5 front shaft should work, but need to make that long mofo for the back.
My main concern was that the 6.2 and the 4.56 gears might not coexist too happily, particularly with my focus on mileage. That concern and attempting to offset the deep gears combined with the relative tread life of the 35" ATs (if they don't prove too sun baked) is the main reason I kept the 4" lift. If it turns out I don't like it (gearing, mileage, height, etc), the plan is to reduce the lift to 2-3" and go with more narrow 33" ATs, likely on 16" OEM steelies, probably with a gear change. I'll avoid cutting it until I get some street time to see how I like it with the 4.56 gears. If I go forward with that setup, I'll get some cut-out flares (anyone got a line?). Otherwise, I'll keep the stock fender openings. I still have to figure out what I'm doing with regard to shocks as well.
The other issue is the steering. The K5 had cross-over steering with a custom crossmember. The sub is getting a custom crossmember too, mainly to deal with the turbo crossover pipe (more later). But I'm thinking with the expedition focus of the sub, I'll keep the anti-sway bar, possibly with custom disconnects. I'll figure that out once it's mobile. But I'm not at all sure if I can get the crossover steering working with everything else. And the standard push-pull orientation actually has some solid points to recommend it for an expedition rig. Problem is, I have everything for cross over, but I don't have a drop arm and a spacer I'll need for the 4" lift with push-pull, so jury is still out on that decision.
At the same time I swapped the 1 ton axles under, I also swapped the stock '85 700R4/NP208 for my upgraded '90 700R4/NP241 with SYE. K5 front shaft should work, but need to make that long mofo for the back.
Here are the pics.
Not sure anyone cares, but here is the trans/case. Not much of interest, other than maybe the adapter bolts swapped out for studs.
My next project was the motor. It was supposed to be just a timing chain and checking out the bottom end which was all pretty nice. But as noted earlier, the bearings were showing early signs of wear, so I made the fateful decision to replace all the bearings. That led to way to much time and money as I learned all about select fit bearings with quite a bit of effort just FINDING the necessary undersize shells. But eventually, it looks like this as it sets, ready for it's new home as soon as I get the crossover pipe fabricated from mandrel sections.
Also as part of that process, I had to decide on the intake to use. Did you know there are 3 6.2 intakes? The C with EGR, the J with a couple of plenum variations, and the HMMWV low single plane intake. I wanted to use the latter, which is much lower as you can see in the pics. But the turbo pressure box(?) has for aft holes, not side by side as required for the military intake.
You might also notice the pic of the painted motor has some custom block-offs for the head intake ports. I have so many C code intakes lying around now that I decided to just cut one up and fill it with silicone rather than mask the ports for painting. It also provided a very good way to keep the engine sealed up due to the time delay between finishing the refresh and actually getting around to final assembly.
Also as part of that process, I had to decide on the intake to use. Did you know there are 3 6.2 intakes? The C with EGR, the J with a couple of plenum variations, and the HMMWV low single plane intake. I wanted to use the latter, which is much lower as you can see in the pics. But the turbo pressure box(?) has for aft holes, not side by side as required for the military intake.
You might also notice the pic of the painted motor has some custom block-offs for the head intake ports. I have so many C code intakes lying around now that I decided to just cut one up and fill it with silicone rather than mask the ports for painting. It also provided a very good way to keep the engine sealed up due to the time delay between finishing the refresh and actually getting around to final assembly.
