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Sad Suburban

Fools errand trying to resurrect an otherwise nice lean Suburban brutally butchered by a conversion company.
No new pics, but I finally did get the new motor in the sub. Unfortunately, the oil return doesn't play well with the actual frame, so I'll be redoing that. No idea how I'm going to snake that thing around everything. TBD...

And there was a bit of a fiasco with a brand new NAPA flywheel that had 4 of 6 crank bolt holes misaligned far enough I couldn't' start the bolts. I ran in the 2 that would start (located on dowel pin), and then took a sharpy and marked the hole correction offsets needed to start a bolt on the 4 empty holes. 2 goes on the bench with a carbide bur in die grinder got all 6 started. Less than ideal, but it's hub centric and dowl located, so the bolt holes are really not for location.
 
Got a quite a few more small things accomplished, mostly not worth mentioning.

One larger task completed is moving the rear cross member to fit a new 40 gal tank. New 40g tank with new straps, rubber hose, and GM inline lift pump are all installed. That's so common and well understood that pictures don't seem warranted. I will mention that those upper rivets are a stone cold PIA to remove if the body shell is still on frame. The only bit worth mentioning is that it appears you can no longer get the stock style tank straps anywhere (that I could find). The new straps I got were Spectra, which seems to get good reviews. Instead of hooks on the front, they have a 90* bent tab that I secured with G8 3/8" bolts complete with some heavy oversize hardened washers (for a bit more support) and G8 lock nuts.

Nick also had a good recommendation I haven't seen before for the OEM style insulator sheets you find on factory tanks. He suggested the #30 roofing felt, which I wish I had gone with because it has a more similar surface texture and weight to the OEM. Instead, I looked online and saw #40 felt was almost the same price. I know that's the preferred stuff for longevity of tile roofing out here (over code being #30), so had my wife pick it up (they loaded @ 80 lbs being 2 square in a roll). My reasoning? If #30 is good, #40 has to be better, right? When it got here though, that stuff has a more granular type top coating somewhat akin to sand paper. I don't think it's a problem, so used it anyway, but if I had to do it again I would go with the common smooth surface #30 roofing felt.

And I've decided to modify my turbo crossover for more clearance to the new crossmember. I tried to mock up as best I could, but installed in frame it's closer than I ever expected. Close enough I worry about movement over time and causing it to get a little too intimate. So it's removed and back in the shop.

I've also been twisting in circles regarding rear brakes. Spent a lot of time fooling around, measuring, thinking, trying, repeat... but no real progress. My 14FF has the 3/4 ton 2.5" drum brakes, but has had some issues with hub seal and flange leaks. I'm NOT going to go with the common 14FF disk conversion due to no parking brake or limited function of Eldo caliper brakes. I kicked around upgrading to '01 up AM 11.5 disks with integrated drum parking brakes, but have good tires on 15" rims that won't fit. That doesn't look that bad at all to adapt, but does require sourcing new calipers, proportioning updates, master cylinder, parking brake line sourcing and integration, PLUS new wheels and tires. So that's definitely a "later as time and money allows" project, likely when new tires are needed anyway And also a few other experimental options I don't yet have a full and final read on yet, maybe more on that later, if it pans out.
 
I guess it's time to update again. This is the final oil return tube. It's using the original custom 1/2" thick flange, but attached to a new 1" HREW tube bent on my tubing bender to snake through to a convenient point. The end of the tube was directly tapped for 1/2" NPT, then a 45* 5/8" nipple was added, and jumped to the oil pan return port in the oil pan. It snaked pretty close to the crossover tube, so the ceramic woven heat sleeve was added for good measure.
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With a lot of discussion between Nick and I, I now have what I believe to be a completely unique 14FF rear axle. If it exists, I couldn't find it, and it's such a PIA, I doubt it will ever be duplicated!

It originated under my K5 where it had the old split e-brake cables. The axle that came out from under the Sub was a 3/4 SF 14 bolt with the large 13" brake drums. I was planning on a junk yard foray to liberate some late 14 FF backing plates, but Nick mentioned he had read that the large SF backing plates were exactly the same as the 3/4 ton 14 FF plates (both have 2.5" wide shoes). Sure enough, as usual, he was right!

Nick had also recently flushed out some faulty information we both carried with us. We both thought that you could switch to late pull-off drum hubs and drums to upgrade an old unitized hub/drum axle. Turns out that's false, no idea how we both made that mistake, but I've got an old 3/4 ton 14FF with unitized hubs, and I HATE those things. On the up side, Nick has also been going through some travails with bending his late 14FF axle housings. Through that he learned that some had MUCH thicker (1/2" IIRC) axle tubes. Which axle has which tubes doesn't seem to be quite clear or entire;y predictable on SRW rear axles, but the odds are better with older axles, so maybe I'll get lucky.

All that got us talking, and thinking. Since the lugs pattern is the same, and the brakes are the same, how hard would it be to use that big deep 14SF pull off drum as a slip on for the old unitized hub without the drum? I gathered up my collection of parts from FF and SF donors, and Nick added in a few options including 1 ton (3.5") slip-on drums and a variety of backing plates. With some investigation, it turned out my original collection proved the best suited. I used the 3/4 ton drums, backing plates and shoes (all practically brand new) off the Sub 14SF. And of course the hub from my old 3/4 ton 14FF axle, minus the drum. Nothing else was really close to working.

So, here is what I did.

1) Turn a bevel in the front OD of the hub so it seats fully in the deep 14SF pull off drum.
2) Make a 0.650 spacer to go behind the backing plate. It seats on the original register, provides a new back plate register on the new front surface, and uses minimal clearance (on size) 1/2 bolt holes just as the backing plate uses.
3) As it turns out, the spindle weld is a HUGE PIA as it wanders a bit, and generally comes right out to where the new register needs to sit on the spindle. If you bore the plate to clear the weld, the register will basically fall right off because the larger bore comes up to the register shoulder. So it took a combination of maximizing the bore depth while still supporting the register, then grind off some of the big ropy weld bead to provide the rest of the clearance.
3) Longer 1/2" NF bolts were obviously required. The spacer was bolted to the original flange and then partially welded. The weld is intended to provide both added rigidity, and also an easy reference to see cracks if they form, which would be an early indicator of movement (bad). I often do the same thing with the pinion caps in axle shafts, just a spot from the cap to the yoke so that if it ever tries to start moving, I can hopefully catch it before it spits out a cap and eats a shaft.

That's about it. Doesn't sound like much, but it was quite a pain due to the weld interference, and my trying to grind the weld at an absolute minimum to prevent any possible weakening. The pics blow show some of the process, and the final pic shows the (supposed) one and only early 14FF with pull off drums.

And YES, I know I could have gone disks, and that was considered. But I will NOT abandon good functioning parking brakes, particularly given the purpose for which I'm building this. I have a set of brackets and disks from a late HD AM axle that I may one day fit, but right now I didn't want to replace my 15" wheels and tires, plus deal with all the updated plumbing and brake cable adapters, so this is how I went. When these tires are shot and I go to 16" or larger wheels/tires, I'll reconsider the disk. Maybe by then I'll run across a complete late disk axle, then only need to swap gears and update plumbing/cables...

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Also, ever since I bought the K5 for my son many years ago, the rear 14FF it came with has leaked at the hubs. The seal surfaces on the back were not that bad, but the axle flange basically stayed wet, and replacing the flange gaskets didn't help. This is one of them. No idea why it leaked...:whistle:
a.jpg

But as you can see, it's on the surface grinder. It took a surprising amount of grinding to clean up both hubs. My best guess is someone replaced the rear seal and maybe bearing race with the flange surface on gravel or something. The following images show it cleaning up (slowly). The final looks not flat, but it's just the lighting. That's likely now the flattest 14FF hub flange in history.
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C.jpg
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Once the grinding was done, the rear seal was removed along with bearings. The latter were cleaned well along with the hub, and a new seal was provided. More on that in a moment...
 
Speaking of that 14FF hub rear seal...

Have you ever had a problem getting once to seal? Ever had to use a "Speedy Sleeve" or the like? Yeah...

But in my recent (google) research, I stumbled across a new integral seal. It actually runs on itself, not on the spindle surface. Once I had that number, I was talking to Nick about it. He not only helped me find some alternate (better/cheaper) numbers for the same thing, but also found documentation that it's used in modern 14FF and is the official recommended update/upgrade for these older axles..

Part numbers of interest are:
National 710568
ACDelco 291-319
These numbers cross reference to a whole range of numbers. I got the ACDelco from Amazon for less than $15 each. I may learn otherwise, but I don't see any reason to ever run the old seals again...

One thing of note. The ID is a tight fit (obviously), and these won't go on by hand. Just use the spindle nut, and they go on easily by just hand torque on the socket. Getting it off also requires some sort of rigged puller.

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And, the final update today. I also completed my turbo downpipe. It's routed just outside the frame rail far enough to get past that tight point at the front of the AC evaporator box, and then dips back inside the frame rail through that huge gap formed by the bottom of the AC box being horizontal as the frame rail drops away.

Don't pay much attention to the rather messy welds. I've never been particularly good on round with the constantly changing angle trying to maintain stick-out. But add to that I'm a few years out of practice and getting old enough that my hands are too shaky anyway. But, best I can tell, it's gas tight. But while I leak checked the cross over, I didn't test this, so there could be pin holes, though I don't think so.

A.jpg

That is 3" mandrel bends, and connects to the existing 3" Banks exhaust just ahead of the transfer case using a sleeve band clamp.

The only real problem was that the inner fender flat portion interfered right below the AC box. So that had to be modified as shown in the pics below. The first shows my cut sketch, which was pretty close to how it wound up. I reused almost all the lip from cut away piece, but had to scavent about 8" from a donor inner fender. Note that instead of a sharp inside corner, I radiused that to prevent stress risers that might otherwise have cracked the fender. It looks smoother in person than in that picture, but it wasn't "body worked" for a show car. My only interest is that hopefully this will last, and protect the engine bay. I'll leave the show trucks for someone who cares...

It will continue to use the forward 2/3 of the factory skirt, but will require me to figure out something to make a short rear skirt. May also just use something like mud flap, or even a bolt on steel skirt to protect the down pipe.

Anyway, here it is. Ready to cut, and just awaiting install.

B.jpg c.jpg
 
That is a good amount of work in my opinion. And a good amount of typing to update!
I will be watching to see how you keep the heat from causing problems with the A/C box.
:waytogo:
 
Thanks.

There will be a heat shield. But it's not nearly as tight (and therefore hot) as the smaller kinked Banks exhaust downpipe in the inside location, which has no room for any heat shielding.
 
Ceramic thermo coat the downpipe? That and exhaust wrap should help immensely. Lizard skin the outside of the evap box, and wrap the a/c lines and you should be good to go.
 
Thanks, great suggestions.

It's currently painted with the high temp VHT silver. Coating isn't out of the question, but wasn't really in the plan, and seems wrong to go that far for something with such ugly welds. :doah:And given the welds, I would love to wrap it to hide them, but that would likely encourage rapid decay and result in a mandatory replacement in a few years. It's VERY tight where it goes back over the frame and down under the floor, so I don't like the idea of anything that's going to force replacement any sooner than necessary. I did look into the possibility of a loose sleeve like was used on the oil return on the theory that it shouldn't encourage decay like wrap, but didn't find anything that would work for 3". And the expense goes up rapidly with size, so might not be a practical option even if I found something to fit. However, that topic has been a focus of my thoughts, even though I haven't gotten to a solution I like. And that's as far as I've gotten on the down pipe insulation ideas.

I haven't worked out the product selection, but providing insulation for the AC lines is in the plan. But that's more for general underhood heat. The lines as routed aren't really all that close to the down pipe. And they are actually a little further away than they would be for the Banks downpipe. I'm thinking maybe some insulated reflective tape type product, but again, don't have a fixed solution yet. Suggestions would be appreciated.

And then there is the AC box. I've already bought a reflective adhesive backed product to apply to the lower portion of box itself to help protect it. I've also got an idea for a floating thermal shield somewhat like what can be found used for starters. That also will likely get a reflective coating on the hot side. The same shield might be possible to extend to provide some isolation from direct radiant heat from the pipe.for the few inches where it's closest to the down pipe. But, I don't yet have a final plan for that. I do like the idea for lizard skin, though it seems like it will be difficult to apply as a spray on.
 
DEI makes a floor and tunnel shield that has a pretty good adhesive on it. It is a thick aluminum on top of the insulation. @mrk5 put it on the bottom of the tunnel in his crew. He said that it made a noticeable difference. I put it under my '90, but I don't have any real feedback yet. It isn't considered cheap in my opinion, but if it does well, it's worth it.

They also sell a version of it that doesn't have the adhesive for a muffler wrap.
I don't know how much you would have to be concerned with the pipe rotting in AZ. I would guess that the exhaust heat will cook the moisture out quickly. And with the dry conditions there, how often would you get caught in rain and conditions to cause rust?
 
True, but we do have monsoon, and not too infrequent water crossings on the back roads, depending on location and time of year. But I think the deterioration is due more to high heat oxidation more just moisture, at least here. When steel gets above 700* or so (vague number, not an expert) it starts reacting with free oxigen much more rapidly than more typical temperatures. And apparently the wrap holds in enough of the heat to make the difference between the tube staying below that transition, or spending a lot more time above it. At least that's what I think I understand. I do know that the Banks downpipe I took off the Sub when I got it was wrapped and showed some pretty severe rust scaling beneath the wrap. And this is on a truck that seems to have seen VERY few miles. I'm pretty sure it had original brakes on it, but the shoes looked near new, and the groove in the drum was so minor I was able to remove the drum without having to back off the brake adjuster. That and other supporting observations would seem to indicate it had VERY few miles on it before the engine died (best guess, lift pump parked it, then eventually locked up). If correct, then that doesn't make me like the odds of using wrap, though I have no way of knowing if the high(est) temp VHT (or even ceramic coating?) would change that in any substantial way.
 
Some of my thought is based off of some of the trucks at my work. They have a loose wrap on the exhaust pipe between the turbo down pipe and the elbow at the bottom of the muffler. We have two '08 trucks that still have not had excessive corrosion. Maybe the "cooking time" is better for them. (Ready-mix trucks) Both are at least 190K miles with average speed of less than 9 mph for their life.
But I understand your point. And I believe that a decent coating would help if it was wrapped.
 
I started looking through some of the DEI stuff, and stumbled onto this. It's somewhat like I envisioned between the box and the pipe, though I was going to put the mounts on the box to prevent thermal transmission, and add a reflective insulation layer on the pipe side. But whew, they are proud of that stuff. Still, sometimes quality costs, and likely better function than what I would fab, plus lots more in time than that cost, so...
 
Oh yeah! I forgot that I put a piece if that on the pipe going in front of the oil pan on my '90. My fingers say that it seems to work, but I don't have any hard evidence.
I can touch it shortly after shutting the engine off...
 
Indeed it has been a long long time Russ! I feel ya on the last project thoughts. I keep plugging away at the Chalet dream myself. Gaining ground slowly but we are getting some where. Just got her out of the shop today. Next up a trip south for camper work finally. Thanx for the seal numbers. I just poached 2 off of eBay so i have a set.

I guess after all these years you can say i was doomed to be Chalet fixated for life...

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Speaking of that 14FF hub rear seal...

Have you ever had a problem getting once to seal? Ever had to use a "Speedy Sleeve" or the like? Yeah...

But in my recent (google) research, I stumbled across a new integral seal. It actually runs on itself, not on the spindle surface. Once I had that number, I was talking to Nick about it. He not only helped me find some alternate (better/cheaper) numbers for the same thing, but also found documentation that it's used in modern 14FF and is the official recommended update/upgrade for these older axles..

Part numbers of interest are:
National 710568
ACDelco 291-319
These numbers cross reference to a whole range of numbers. I got the ACDelco from Amazon for less than $15 each. I may learn otherwise, but I don't see any reason to ever run the old seals again...

One thing of note. The ID is a tight fit (obviously), and these won't go on by hand. Just use the spindle nut, and they go on easily by just hand torque on the socket. Getting it off also requires some sort of rigged puller.

View attachment 304271
Yeah all my big rig seals are like this now, they call them 2 piece seal.
No need for speedy sleeves anymore, rubber on both ends
 
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