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The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)

i don't remember if you went through the axles or not, maybe a bent or poorly machined shaft or housing? i wouldn't think it would be drums since they shouldn't be touching the pads at 60. possible it's a warped rotor.

All of the bearings in the rear axle are new. Not a rotor as it had the vibration with the D44 and the 60.

after rereading, if it requires that much maintenence to stay between the weeds, i would think it might be an alignment issue bad tierod ends or loose kingpin causing slight death wobble, maybe toe in isn't quite right.

It is not that bad, but compared to how it drove with the road tires that were on it, it requires more attention. Tie rods are new, kingpins are tight, no death wobble. I am going to run the tires for a bit to get them broken it and they will probably improve. We'll see. These tires will be for off road excursions as opposed to daily driving.
 
well if you did your bearings you would have noticed a poorly machined shaft. i have heard of bent transmission input shafts causing vibrations but that was in a class 8 rig. maybe the yokes are machined slightly off center? it sounds like you've eliminated the easy ones.

i hate not being able to see your pics here at work. i'llbet it looks sweet with the mt's on!
 
What exectly is your rear driveshaft setup? Is it the usual CV at the t-case end, single u-joint at the diff end?

BTW, when you were at Jason's work I was just 1 mile down the road. I could have drove over there to check your ride out, but he didn't call me, the bastige :doah: :D
 
The Bfg's will calm down on the road after the tread wears down some - the "technical term" is tread squirm, it's the price ya gotta pay for all that traction.....
And that Jason is one cool dude 'eh? (I wouldn't be the best man @ just anybodys wedding)
 
I had a lingering doubt about the rear axle because I had never driven the truck that it came out of. I doubted that there was a problem in it, but for two reasons I purchased a complete 14FF assembly out of a you pull it yard. The first reason was I wanted to try a complete axle assembly--untouched--and see if anything changed with the vibration and second (more importantly) was I wanted to go with a higher gear ratio--3.73 as the 4.10's are just too much gear for a torque motor. They are fine for a small block, but running them with the Cummins was a chore as the motor wound up too quickly and spun too fast on the highway.

I finally got fed up one day and went shopping. One yard--nothing, second yard had one that could have been something, but the SPID label was gone and I did not feel like pulling a diff cover in a mud puddle, so I passed. The third yard had what ended up being the cat's ass. I found a super-clean '97 G3500 passenger van. I checked the SPID label and found the GT4 code indicating the desired 3.73 ratio. I pulled it out and loaded it onto one of the wagons tha they provide and dragged it about 1/8-1/4 mile to the cashier. I left it outside as it had completely kicked my ass dragging it across the yard on two flat tires and it not being light to begin with. The cashier made me bring it inside. I stated that it is what it looks like and it looks the same out there as it would in here, but she still made me drag it inside (thank you nice lady). I paid my money, loaded it in the truck and headed home and unloaded it.

As a side note, I had looked at the van that this came from and I wondered why a truck this clean was in the wrecking yard. It had no insurance company information on it, but then I found the "c4c" on it. Ahhhh, the wonderful Cash For Clunkers program. Well, I cut the SPID label off of it and when I got home I ran the vin on the state website to see how many miles it had on it when it was last emission tested--and also how bad it was polluting. I found that it had 157,000 on it and it ran so clean it practically made air. Yeah, great truck to take off the road guys.

So, I wanted to put this diff in without touching anything. I only had one problem and that was the parking brake cables were the later design that I had initially wanted, but couldn't find. Now I had them, but I had already set the truck up to use the older bolt-in style. Now, I could redo the truck and use the newer cables, but I did not feel like doing all of that to swap out a diff. I happened to have a set of one ton (13x3.5") backing plates that use the bolt in parking brake cables. I swapped those on with all of the late model brake components that came on the axle. One super-bitchin' bonus of this swap is I get slide-off brake drums!!! Woo-hoo!! I did have to pull the hubs to swap the backing plates though, but when I did I checked out the bearings and they look great. The gear oil smelled good. I got a unit that is in great shape.

I cut the perches off and welded them in the correct place. Before I swapped the new axle in I took my 2.5 deg angle milled Zero Rates and turned them around thus raising the existing pinion five degrees. That made no change at all. I got home and pulled the diff and swapped in the new one. While I was taking it apart one nut on one of the new u-bolts galled. Nobody in town stocks them and spring shops are closed, but a couple phone calls later to some fellow gear heads had a replacement located and the project back in motion.

I got the new diff in and bled the brakes and went for a drive. The first thing I noticed is how nice the truck drives with the higher gears. I can drive around without having to use fifth gear. Prior to the swap, my maximum speed in fourth gear (1:1) was 55mph. I had to be in fifth to merge onto the freeway. Now, my top speed in fourth is about 65mph. It doesn't seem like much, but it make a huge difference in drivability. It spins slower on the freeway such that it quiets the motor down significantly. The motor lays down above 90mph now instead of 82mph. All in all it wa worth every bit of effort to install. I can not convey how much nicer this thing is to drive now that the motor spins slower. The fatigue factor of a roadtrip will be lessened significantly.

It has the cool, ribbed-for-her-pleasure housing:

DSC05668.jpg



So, it drives soooo nice now, the vibration...


















oh yeah.....





























remains alive and well!! No difference whatsoever!!

Argh. I guess I knew it going in, but I really hoped it would take care of it.
 
Soooo, what to do now. I decided to compose a couple emails and send them to people who have more experience in this arena than I do. I wrote a couple emails that looked like novels and sent one to Dan at quad4x4. I have had great luck with everything that I have purchased from him but more importantly, I have never been able to stump him with any question I have asked of him. He responded back with some quality information and helpful suggestions. I checked a few of the things out and while I was doing that I got a response from my second email that I had sent to Jess at High Angle Driveline.

Jess' response was basically one sentance stating that he knew what my problem was and that I needed his patented drive flange and a double cardan shaft. He guaranteed that this would solve my problem and while I have no reason to doubt the master, I still wondered why. I gave him a call and he spent a fair bit of time on the phone with me explaining the situation. He said that the problem I am having is called gear rattle. It occurs when the joints operate over eight degress and they create a oscillation in the shaft and the shaft will push the oscillation out into the transfer case or into the ring and pinion. I had not told anybody that the vibration under decel sounded like the ring and pinion was coming apart, but he told me that it was--I was very impressed.

Anyways, I ordered up a 1350 series double cardan shaft assembly and a a week or so later a box showed up. Inside the box was one of these:

DSC05672.jpg


DSC05673.jpg


DSC05674.jpg


I had to change the pinion angle that I had just installed, so out came the new diff. I decided to get new perches so I wouldn't have to cut these off again and re-re-weld them on. I got the new perches tacked on and the axle temporarily re-installed. I installed the output flange on the transfer case and installed the driveshaft. I finalized the pinion angle two degrees down from the driveshaft and welded the perches on and installed new u-bolts. I got the shocks re-installed and hooked the brake lines back up. It was time to go to work and I knew there was no way I was going to be able to get work done efficiently thinking about this thing sitting at home in the driveway, so I decided to take it on a test drive to work--all or nothing.

So I did a quick transfer of all my rain gear from my S10 back into the Suburban (it wasn't needed, but if I didn't have it, it would have poured), grabbed my lunch and jumped in. Now, from the get-go, the biggest pain of the vibration has been that it occurs at 60mph and higher. That means that no matter what I try I have to drive it atleast 60mph. Now, the only place nearby to drive that fast is the freeway and there is no getting on slowly or taking your time getting up to speed. With that in mind, I get on the freeway as gingerly as possible. I get up to speed and merge on and all seems well. I play around in the range that I think it should be in (at this point I have not gotten my speedometer recalibrated for the 3.73's) and all seems well. I get to work and am fairly pleased and I believe the vibration is gone, but I want to be sure so I reserve judgement until the ride home.

I get out of work and and quite anxious to drive the truck for some reason. I get on the freeway and all seems well. I roll into and out of the throttle and it seems good. I run it way past where the vibration should have been and all is good. Then I run it way up and let off abruptly and it coasts down smoooothly and quietly--all is good--life is good!!

Yessir, all it took was a gold-plated driveshaft to fix the problem. Now, there is nothing wrong with my previous driveshaft--nothing at all. It just happens that he length, diameter, angle and any other variable added up against me to create an issue. I have seen drivelines with much more angle run smooth as can be--why did I have a problem?? Basically it came down to bad luck. An identical truck might not have ever had an issue while mine did. One Blazer with a driveline that practically hangs straight down has no isssues while the same setup in an identical Blazer vibrates like all get out--luck of the draw.

So me and my boy head out for an extended test drive. We head about fifty miles east to an antique tractor show and the whole drive is absolutely wonderful. Worth every penny of driveline and 3.73s. It is so nice to drive now.

So the vibration is gone and all is well right?? Well, sort of. I developed a new vibration. Are you getting tired of vibrations?? I sure am.

Near the end of our journey back (on our way to our second destination of the day--still on a freeway) I picked up a horrible grinding type very deep vibration. WTH now?!? I tried a few things to see if it affected the situation at all. I tried accelereation, braking, swerve right, swerve left and nothing affects it. The wierd thing about this vibration is it is intermittent--yes it comes and goes. After driving for a couple miles while trying to get on the other side of a mountain to where a good friend lives, the vibration stops--smooth sailing. Huh?? Gone?? Yup, gone. How, why, what...?? I hit a bump--an expansion joint at the leading edge of a bridge--and it is back in full force. Huh?? How?? Then I hit the expansion joint at the far side of the bridge and it is gone--just like that--GONE!! Huh?? How?? It basically repeats this scenario over every bridge/overpass. No worries as there are no mile long bridges or anything, but the problem comes in a single bump that has no partner. The bump kicks in the vibration, but there is no second bump to "turn it off".

Anyways, I get to where I am going and on the way home on surface streets I get no vibration at all. Is all well?? No. On my way home from work (not to work, but from work) just before I get to my exit, just after hitting a bump it is back in full force. Swell. Same thing the next day, but it came back about a mile sooner, but not enough to diagnose it. Hit one bump and it is on, hit another bump and it is gone. Now I am to the point I do not want ot drive this thing on the freeway or any distance far from home for fear of this thing going crazy, but I have to drive it 10-12 miles to get the vibration to occur.

So, here I am. Everything works fantastic--except whatever is causing the current vibration. I checked my mileage for about 175mi of driving--some highway and some city with a corrected speedometer and netted 19.55mpg without trying--just driving normal. So, with that, I am pleased. I hope to pass twenty soon, but we'll see.

Any guesses on the latest and greatest vibration?? The winner will get a cool prize!!
 
That was an amusing read. :) Hopefully you can figure out what the new vibration/noise is!
I had a noise that I couldn't track down. It only occurred during deceleration without the brakes and after many many weeks of trying to track it down it turned out to be the stupid dust shield around the yoke on my 14 bolt. :( I tacked that sucker in place and all is well.
Hopefully yours is something small and stupid like that too. :)
 
Agreed, Nice read! Man i hate vibrations! Seems every truck i have ever owned has had a vibe of some type!
 
That was an amusing read. :) Hopefully you can figure out what the new vibration/noise is!
I had a noise that I couldn't track down. It only occurred during deceleration without the brakes and after many many weeks of trying to track it down it turned out to be the stupid dust shield around the yoke on my 14 bolt. :( I tacked that sucker in place and all is well.

Wow, nice find!! I was searching out stuff like that on mine, but never got so lucky.

Hopefully yours is something small and stupid like that too. :)

Almost as stupid, but yet quite different.

Agreed, Nice read! Man i hate vibrations! Seems every truck i have ever owned has had a vibe of some type!

I have developed a pretty severe disdain toward them myself lately.

On a completely unrelated note, I did figure out what was the cause of the "new" vibration. By doing the vehicle gyrations while the vibration was occurring, I had eliminated many possibilities. One thing that had stuck in my mind was when I went to the speedometer shop, they ran it on the dyno which is right outside a window from the waiting room. Now, my rear driveline vibration is gone, but I was still wondering if the pinion was moving up and down, so I would look out the window while it was being run on the dyno. The pinion was not moving mych at all, but one thing I did notice is that the front driveshaft was windmilling and that the source of the windmilling was from the transfer case, not the front axle as it was stationary during the test.

Knowing this, I decided that my latest and greatest vibration had something to do with this. One day before work, I pulled the driveshaft off of the front pinon and knocked the slip joint apart and lo-and-behold it was quite dry. I had greased the zerk when I put it in until grease came out the hole in the yoke and called it good. Well, what happened was the grease I installed got pumped down one spline and into the void at the end of the yoke, then got pumped out the hole in the end of the yoke bit by bit over every bump I hit, leaving the rest of the splines with a very minimal amount of lube.

So, I manually packed some grease into the splines of the yoke and also the splines on the shaft, put it back together and drove it to work. Everything was cool--because it would only do it on the way home. The drive home was uneventful. Did I fix it or is it going to come back tomorrow?? Well, last week I put about 325mi on it with enough sustained highway driving to be able to say that the latest and greatest vibration is gone. Yay!!

So, at this vibration-free point in time, I have made some observations. The first is that the 3.73 swap was worth every penny and hour of time invested. My engine speed at 65mph is a just fuzz under 1800rpm, which makes the motor so much quieter it becomes a background noise as opposed to front and center as it was before. Now, that being said, it was not that bad before, but it is just so much nicer now. I am very glad that I did it. The second observation is since the 3.73 swap, I have not had a tank of fuel burn at a rate less than 19.15mpg. The verdict is still out, but it appears that the swap netted me 1-1.5 mpg. A nice side bonus of the swap. I have a feeling that this is pretty accurate because the last tank of fuel was not shown any mercy. Now, I did not beat on it, but I did leave a "black cloud calling card" here and there. Prior to the swap, I would have expected this tank to burn at about 17 to maaaaybe 17.5 if I was lucky.

So, I guess I need to figure out why my front shaft is windmilling. I guess it is not so important now that the shaft is greased, but it still makes me wonder because I can grab the shaft and spin it with no resistance, no dragging, no noise etc.

Oh, one last observation: This thing sounds pretty damn serious running 65mph on the dyno right outside a thin piece of glass in a small waiting room that happens to be completely reverberating to the tune of the Cummins 5.9th overture. That was almost worth the price of the speedometer recalibration right there.
 
congratulations on figuring out the vibration! sounds like you are enjoying the payoff.
 
I can't remember which TC you have, but the reality is the fluid friction will cause the front driveline to turn even when the TC is in 2x mode. It seems like I see it more with the 205 TC's than with the 208 and 241 versions, but all will have some motion induced by the oil movement.
 
I can't remember which TC you have, but the reality is the fluid friction will cause the front driveline to turn even when the TC is in 2x mode. It seems like I see it more with the 205 TC's than with the 208 and 241 versions, but all will have some motion induced by the oil movement.


X2... My 208 does it a little bit but I have a friend with a 203/205 and the front shaft spins quite a bit even when it's not "engaged".
 
congratulations on figuring out the vibration! sounds like you are enjoying the payoff.

Thank you!! I am enjoying every minute of it. It probably doesn't seem like much, but for the last 5800mi, I have been dealing with a vibration that started at sixty mph. I no longer have that vibration--finally. I can cruise on the freeway at 63mph if I want to without feeling through the sheetmetal that I am driving between 60-65mph. Like I said, it doesn't seem like much, but it is very nice to not have.

I can't remember which TC you have, but the reality is the fluid friction will cause the front driveline to turn even when the TC is in 2x mode. It seems like I see it more with the 205 TC's than with the 208 and 241 versions, but all will have some motion induced by the oil movement.

X2... My 208 does it a little bit but I have a friend with a 203/205 and the front shaft spins quite a bit even when it's not "engaged".

Yeah, I figured it is probably not too much to worry about especially now that the shaft has some lube--a lubed shaft is a happy shaft. I think I am content to know that it is spinning and not vibrating, so all is good.
 
I wonder if a lower viscosity oil would have less drag and prevent thr front shaft from rotating?


I wondered that myself. The later 205's in the V3500's ran ATF for lube. The only reason that I can figure would be for less drag. Is it enough to keep it from windmilling?? I don't know, but it might be something to try.
 
I passed 6000mi on the way home from work today. The only notable issues so far have been the injection pump seal that failed, the radiator situation and the rear driveline vibration. Other than those, it has been smooth sailing considering all that was done to it.
Oh, it is still fun to drive.
 
Well, I haven't been doing much with this except driving it. A couple notable things have occurred with it lately though. First and foremost, the moment you all have been waiting for (well, I have anyways), I got this super-lightweight, super-aerodynamic machine over 20mpg!! Yessir, we got a 20.55mpg tank out of it. I'm not sure how it happened, but I did the math three times and it worked out the same each time. Of course the next tank was 16.83 (I have no idea whatsoever how THAT happened), but that was followed my a 19.95, so I am counting the 16.83 as an anomaly. All along, I was hoping to get over 20mpg with this 6600lb machine and I finally got it. Hopefully I can repeat it here soon. Ironically, that 20.55 had some stop and go, some extended idle time and some A/C time on it as well (this time of year, the only time the A/C is on is when my wife is in the truck).

I finally got around to regearing the front axle. I picked up a set of like-new, used 3.73 gears from 90k5blaze. I then managed to match schedules with an old friend of mine to help with the install--thanks Brooce!! Everything to do with the gears went as smooth as could be, but I had some issues with water in the hubs. I am not sure how it got in as all of the seals and the washers under the screws are new, but there was definitely water in there at some time. Upon removal of the locking hub, I was greeted with rust everywhere. The left side was worse than the right as it required replacement of the outer wheel bearing and race due to rust issues. Immediately on the inside of the bearing was perfect--no water got past the bearing. On the right side, no water even got to the bearing. I only had to clean up the mess in the splined area of the hub. I will have to do some more looking to see how the water got in as it could only come from rain and/or driving in rain as the front axle has not been submerged in water.

On a completely different note, some of you may remember when I built the exhaust for this I built one section of it twice--one section with a muffler and the same section without a muffler. Well, Saturday morning I swapped the muffler-less pipe into the truck. Wow, what a difference. There is not too much noise difference idling and driving with a light foot without a muffler vs having a muffler, but when the hammer goes down this thing sounds like a whizzed off semi with and angry exhaust note. I took my boy for a ride to pick something up and when we got in I asked him if it sounded any different. He said no. Cruising out of the neighborhood I asked him again and he said no. Once we got out of the neighborhood, I got on it. I looked over at him and he had this ear-to-ear grin going on that was almost too big for his face. I asked him again and he said it sounded like a semi(truck)-racecar. I'm not sure what a semi(truck)-racecar sounds like, but if it sounds like this thing under heavy throttle, then it sounds pretty damn cool. We had a great time listening to the turbo wail and the exhaust howl and ended our day at a weekly car show.

It was a whole bunch of fun. In the end, I'm not sure who laughed more, me or him.
Great times!!

I did add a little bling to the unit this weekend. I have to thank Kert from diy4x for the idea and Scott (mrk5) from Big Horn Graphics for the excellent product.

I will let it speak for itself:

DSC05772.jpg


I realize it will not add the twenty hp that a performance parts sticker will, but I like it better anyways.
 
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