Thinking about some power upgrades - Need some cam advice - Engine Gurus help please

[Chevy305]

Ok I googled what a machined roller block is supposed to look like and mine is definately not...
Example:

Looks like I'm going with retrofit lifters and a cam button

 

[82355]

Are you sure on the age of your block? Grab a picture of the casting date for me if you can.

Martin

 

[folkenheath]

Yeah, your block definitely isn't the newer roller block like a 91 should be, doesn't even have the casting provisions in the front. And based on your timing cover, you need the regular short cam button.

Another thing I noticed, that balancer appears considerably smaller than your timing tab. Did you ever double check TDC with a piston stop? If I were you, I would degree the new cam in, and while your doing that, double check your TDC to verify the balancer and timing cover will work with each other. You may need to modify or replace the tab to get a true TDC. Even the correct stock units I have found are usually a couple degrees off.

427, I agree the ignition box isn't going to give him a noticeable power gain, you are correct. And with his cam and compression he could probably get away without it, however, it can give him easier starting and better lower rpm efficiency, and it surely can't hurt, if he has the money an MSD box is good piece of mind. I've actually seen on a few different engines with larger camshafts and higher compression where the plugs would foul while idling on the street and wouldn't clean back out again, missing at higher rpms and backfiring through the exhaust under load. Install an MSD box and within 15 minutes the exact same plugs clean out and the engine runs smooth again. They are definitely an improvement over stock.

305, nothing wrong with retrofit and a cam button. I have had one in my regal 388 since 1997, so far so good. Also, for piece of mind, I usually put in one of those cam sprocket plates for $5 or so to guarantee the cam bolts don't loosen.

 

[80' 427]

Thanks for the advice on the timing . I'll make some adjustments as my work schedule allows which would be in about 2 more weeks .




Thanks for the clearification. I googled it and it seems like I might as well flip a coin to tell if I have a ready machined roller block or if I need a few holes drilled/tapped. Just let me make sure I have it right, to go roller I need the cam, facotry roller lifters, spider thingy, and a thrust plate?

EDIT:

Ok I found a pic of when I assembled the engine, it appears that I don't have any holes for the spider retainer:

The LT4 hot cam is way over priced and isn't what I'm looking for in a cam. I'm looking for about 1500-6000rpm. A pretty broad power band is what I'm looking for.

It doesn't really matter now. To use a gen II roller in that block you have to cut the ears of that cam retainer, get a cam button. I found it easiest to just by a retro fit roller cam kit when I have done it in the past. For the a LC of 106-108 will make better low end torque but make it more peaky. For a good flat pulling cam I would look at something in the 214/220 duration with about 112lca.

 

[80' 427]

Also those heads are pretty big for what you are trying to do. Honestly it would gain power with a set of vortecs.

 

[Chevy305]

Are you sure on the age of your block? Grab a picture of the casting date for me if you can.

Martin

Thats pretty much all my pictures, I'm currently away from home on business so I can't take new pics. Also where is the casting date?

Yeah, your block definitely isn't the newer roller block like a 91 should be, doesn't even have the casting provisions in the front. And based on your timing cover, you need the regular short cam button.

Another thing I noticed, that balancer appears considerably smaller than your timing tab. Did you ever double check TDC with a piston stop? If I were you, I would degree the new cam in, and while your doing that, double check your TDC to verify the balancer and timing cover will work with each other. You may need to modify or replace the tab to get a true TDC. Even the correct stock units I have found are usually a couple degrees off.

I never checked TDC and that pic is a bit of an optical illusion as it is much closer than it looks. I beleive its a 7.5" or 8" balancer.

427, I agree the ignition box isn't going to give him a noticeable power gain, you are correct. And with his cam and compression he could probably get away without it, however, it can give him easier starting and better lower rpm efficiency, and it surely can't hurt, if he has the money an MSD box is good piece of mind. I've actually seen on a few different engines with larger camshafts and higher compression where the plugs would foul while idling on the street and wouldn't clean back out again, missing at higher rpms and backfiring through the exhaust under load. Install an MSD box and within 15 minutes the exact same plugs clean out and the engine runs smooth again. They are definitely an improvement over stock.

I looked it up and MSD ships their dissys with the heavier springs so they can bolt in and work in any vehicle with risk of detonation. So I will be ordering a spring kit for sure.

305, nothing wrong with retrofit and a cam button. I have had one in my regal 388 since 1997, so far so good. Also, for piece of mind, I usually put in one of those cam sprocket plates for $5 or so to guarantee the cam bolts don't loosen.

Already have a sprocket plate

It doesn't really matter now. To use a gen II roller in that block you have to cut the ears of that cam retainer, get a cam button. I found it easiest to just by a retro fit roller cam kit when I have done it in the past. For the a LC of 106-108 will make better low end torque but make it more peaky. For a good flat pulling cam I would look at something in the 214/220 duration with about 112lca.

I don't understand how a tight LSA makes more low end torque when it makes the idle quality worse

Also those heads are pretty big for what you are trying to do. Honestly it would gain power with a set of vortecs.

185cc intake is too big? I did a lot of research before I bought these heads and vortec heads would be a big step backwards in power. The flow numbers speak for themselves. Also I ran 100s of combos through desktop dyno and votrec heads made about 25hp less. The gap in torque was less but the Patriots still made more power across the board. Plus with the aluminum heads I'm saving weight and my engine warms up way faster.

 

[Chevy305]

Found a pic of the balancer from a different angle:

 

[black dawg]

the tighter lsa generally increases cyl pressure which increases low end torque. It also helps low speed scavenging. tight lsa cams always feel more impressive than wider lsa cams.

 

[Chevy305]

I thought tight LSA reduces cylinder pressure, thats why people running high compression use them to reduce low-mid rpm detonation.

 

[folkenheath]

Here are two tech pages that have a little info to read about it...

http://www.compcams.com/Pages/413/cam-timing-lobe-separation-angle.aspx

http://www.cranecams.com/faqview.php?s_id=6

Tighter lobe seperation will have more valve overlap, and idle will be worse along with vacuum, but because the intake valve closes sooner it builds more dynamic compression for more torque down low. However, it also reduces power up high because it's like advancing the intake portion of the cam. Which is why the powerband is a shorter window.

I don't think your heads are too big, 185 is on the small side for performance applications, it only goes up from there for the majority of aftermarket heads. I am not a fan of foreign heads being marketed as american with patriotic names and freedom, etc, but they do look decent at least. The castings look smooth and they don't look like junk. I see they are drilled for std and vortec intakes as well.

 

[80' 427]

I have a dirt track vortec 355 making over 450 hp with a 2bbl. Unless you have a flowbench you should never trust anyone elses flow numbers. I have a 383 with dart 185 and everyday I wish I would have used vortecs. Big heads on a 355 make for a lazy motor.

 

[80' 427]

I thought tight LSA reduces cylinder pressure, thats why people running high compression use them to reduce low-mid rpm detonation.

Actually most of those people over duration there motor to loose more Dynamic compression.

 

[80' 427]

Also since I am pretty sure I am coming off like a dick even though that isn't my intention. Desk top dyno and a real dyno are light years apart. The best money I have ever spent on hp gains on a engine have ALWAYS been to take it to a good chassis dyno and dial it in. I have never seen less than 25 whp EVER. It is worth every penny and if you go ready to do some parts swapping you can find huge gains. I found 90 whp on my camaro just messing with exhaust, lash, jetting and carb size.

 

[folkenheath]

I have a dirt track vortec 355 making over 450 hp with a 2bbl. Unless you have a flowbench you should never trust anyone elses flow numbers. I have a 383 with dart 185 and everyday I wish I would have used vortecs. Big heads on a 355 make for a lazy motor.

You have some Dart 185s (aluminum?) and you'd rather have vortecs? I'll buy a set of vortecs and trade you even up? What cam are you running in that? Unless its some dinky little thing you would probably be disappointed if you actually did that swap. I think Dart heads are some of the best out there, one of the few companies to do wetflow testing.

Also since I am pretty sure I am coming off like a dick even though that isn't my intention. Desk top dyno and a real dyno are light years apart. The best money I have ever spent on hp gains on a engine have ALWAYS been to take it to a good chassis dyno and dial it in. I have never seen less than 25 whp EVER. It is worth every penny and if you go ready to do some parts swapping you can find huge gains. I found 90 whp on my camaro just messing with exhaust, lash, jetting and carb size.

I agree on the desktop dyno, it may be slightly better than just mind guessing but its not that close to real world. Many times with the same exact cam,just putting in the advertised or .050 numbers (and telling it so, it knows at what lift the numbers are from) give drastically different results, with the real number most likely somewhere in between.

However, taking a step further, my uncle always says "dynos don't win races". I always tune at the track, ETs and MPH don't lie, regardless of how powerful the car is sitting there. The dynamics of vehicle motion and airflow, etc are not the same as in the dyno, and the engine runs different. The dyno definitely gets you a lot closer though.

Regardless of how you are coming off to everyone, I like discussing the stuff with you and Martin, in my opinion you guys usually know what you are talking about regarding engines, even if Martin has an orange SM465 attached to his hip. Do you have an SM465 behind that 383? Maybe thats why you don't like the dart heads, can't shift fast enough to keep up with the power?

By the way, on your camaro, that 10.30 on the bottle? street car? Don't know how wicked your 427 is or how streetworthy the camaro is, so it could be either if it's a badass race 427 in a stripped camaro. *EDIT* nevermind, I see it's a 10:1 oval port motor, so I am assuming its on the bottle.

I just ran 10.52 in my regal yesterday, 175 shot immediately off the tbrake, talk about a big grin on my face! Still drove it home, my old cast KB pistons and stock cast crank were begging me not to do it again, so I didn't. I wanted to, becuase I only had time to get hte bottle up to 800 psi it was so cold there. If it wasn't for the 15 - 20 mph headwind I would of done it again, figured I would save full pressure for a calmer day. Surprisingly there was a new guy in the timing booth, never said a word about my lack of a cage. They usually bust me immediately there. I think about upping it to a 250 shot, but I still have the dual plane intake, and imagine calling a tow truck because of a huge hole in one of my pistons.

Anyway, sorry about the hijack, still excited about it.

 

[80' 427]

You have some Dart 185s (aluminum?) and you'd rather have vortecs? I'll buy a set of vortecs and trade you even up? What cam are you running in that? Unless its some dinky little thing you would probably be disappointed if you actually did that swap. I think Dart heads are some of the best out there, one of the few companies to do wetflow testing. A 383 likes to breathe, my 388 does, I know that.



I agree on the desktop dyno, it may be slightly better than just mind guessing but its not that close to real world. Many times with the same exact cam,just putting in the advertised or .050 numbers (and telling it so, it knows at what lift the numbers are from) give drastically different results, with the real number most likely somewhere in between.

However, taking a step further, my uncle always says "dynos don't win races". I always tune at the track, ETs and MPH don't lie, regardless of how powerful the car is sitting there. The dynamics of vehicle motion and airflow, etc are not the same as in the dyno, and the engine runs different. The dyno definitely gets you a lot closer though.

Regardless of how you are coming off to everyone, I like discussing the stuff with you and Martin, in my opinion you guys usually know what you are talking about regarding engines, even if Martin has an orange SM465 attached to his hip. Do you have an SM465 behind that 383? Maybe thats why you don't like the dart heads, can't shift fast enough to keep up with the power?

By the way, on your camaro, that 10.30 on the bottle? street car? Don't know how wicked your 427 is or how streetworthy the camaro is, so it could be either if it's a badass race 427 in a stripped camaro.

I just ran 10.52 in my regal yesterday, 175 shot immediately off the tbrake, talk about a big grin on my face! Still drove it home, my old cast KB pistons and stock cast crank were begging me not to do it again, so I didn't. I wanted to, becuase I only had time to get hte bottle up to 800 psi it was so cold there. If it wasn't for the 15 - 20 mph headwind I would of done it again, figured I would save it for a calmer day. Surprisingly there was a new guy in the timing booth, never said a word about my lack of a cage. They usually bust me immediately there.

The 180s are Iron eagles and if you want to send me some 062 vortecs you can have them. The cam is small because I believe trucks should have truck cams. Duration is 209 218? It made 380hp when it was a dirt track motor but it is just lazy and likes to detonate when you lug it even on 92 (it is only 9 to 1). I think the velocity just isn't there. Tranny is a 700 with a 1800 converter. I will tell you my low compression (7.8 to 1) peanut port 454 would eat its dinner all day long. I have $850 in the 454 and $3000 in the 383. Makes me wonder why I ever mess with stupid mouse motors. That $1500 355 is about the only motor I was ever impressed with.

My 10.30 was on a 250 shot. There is more in it (NOS say approx 25% more) cause the cam was 106 lc and I am pumping alot out the tail pipe. It got a new cam and I found 30 cfm in heads. It is going together then into storage since I decided I am going back to school for the next 4 years. Is is streetable? Idk it has full interior and runs on pump gas. It does have 4.11 gears with no overdrive and I drove it 1500 miles on drag week turning it 3800-4200 to go down the highway. Never broke and made 6 to 7 passes a day. Changed oil in Tx and checked lash. Everyone told me I was crazy for running it that hard but it never complained and even got 12 mpg once. Hell I turn 7000+ in the lights. Mine isn't bad ass at all. Mostly stock stuff this year with brodix heads. I replace the rods this year but before that it was SRP pistons, Stock 7/16s rods, 366 grain truck crank, 454 4 bolt block. It is a heavy pig.

 

[80' 427]

I agree that you don't race dynos but it is hard to tune streetablity on a race track and I will tell you one day on the dyno has taken things from horrible to drive to tire smoke and power with caddy like idle. My 454s Qjet on gas drove horrible, after if was a race car. It would roll the 37s and even got 2nd at the truck pulls against some semi heavy hitters in the stock class. Of course when it had the turbo charger it was just stupid.

 

[jekquistk5]

You have some Dart 185s (aluminum?) and you'd rather have vortecs? I'll buy a set of vortecs and trade you even up? What cam are you running in that? Unless its some dinky little thing you would probably be disappointed if you actually did that swap. I think Dart heads are some of the best out there, one of the few companies to do wetflow testing.



I agree on the desktop dyno, it may be slightly better than just mind guessing but its not that close to real world. Many times with the same exact cam,just putting in the advertised or .050 numbers (and telling it so, it knows at what lift the numbers are from) give drastically different results, with the real number most likely somewhere in between.

However, taking a step further, my uncle always says "dynos don't win races". I always tune at the track, ETs and MPH don't lie, regardless of how powerful the car is sitting there. The dynamics of vehicle motion and airflow, etc are not the same as in the dyno, and the engine runs different. The dyno definitely gets you a lot closer though.

Regardless of how you are coming off to everyone, I like discussing the stuff with you and Martin, in my opinion you guys usually know what you are talking about regarding engines, even if Martin has an orange SM465 attached to his hip. Do you have an SM465 behind that 383? Maybe thats why you don't like the dart heads, can't shift fast enough to keep up with the power?

By the way, on your camaro, that 10.30 on the bottle? street car? Don't know how wicked your 427 is or how streetworthy the camaro is, so it could be either if it's a badass race 427 in a stripped camaro. *EDIT* nevermind, I see it's a 10:1 oval port motor, so I am assuming its on the bottle.

I just ran 10.52 in my regal yesterday, 175 shot immediately off the tbrake, talk about a big grin on my face! Still drove it home, my old cast KB pistons and stock cast crank were begging me not to do it again, so I didn't. I wanted to, becuase I only had time to get hte bottle up to 800 psi it was so cold there. If it wasn't for the 15 - 20 mph headwind I would of done it again, figured I would save full pressure for a calmer day. Surprisingly there was a new guy in the timing booth, never said a word about my lack of a cage. They usually bust me immediately there. I think about upping it to a 250 shot, but I still have the dual plane intake, and imagine calling a tow truck because of a huge hole in one of my pistons.

Anyway, sorry about the hijack, still excited about it.

You should still have my number, I have a truck and will have a trailer soon Anytime you want to blow up your motor at the track let me know. I'll video it, and drag you home.

 

[folkenheath]

The 180s are Iron eagles and if you want to send me some 062 vortecs you can have them. The cam is small because I believe trucks should have truck cams. Duration is 209 218? It made 380hp when it was a dirt track motor but it is just lazy and likes to detonate when you lug it even on 92 (it is only 9 to 1). I think the velocity just isn't there. Tranny is a 700 with a 1800 converter. I will tell you my low compression (7.8 to 1) peanut port 454 would eat its dinner all day long. I have $850 in the 454 and $3000 in the 383. Makes me wonder why I ever mess with stupid mouse motors. That $1500 355 is about the only motor I was ever impressed with.

My 10.30 was on a 250 shot. There is more in it (NOS say approx 25% more) cause the cam was 106 lc and I am pumping alot out the tail pipe. It got a new cam and I found 30 cfm in heads. It is going together then into storage since I decided I am going back to school for the next 4 years. Is is streetable? Idk it has full interior and runs on pump gas. It does have 4.11 gears with no overdrive and I drove it 1500 miles on drag week turning it 3800-4200 to go down the highway. Never broke and made 6 to 7 passes a day. Changed oil in Tx and checked lash. Everyone told me I was crazy for running it that hard but it never complained and even got 12 mpg once. Hell I turn 7000+ in the lights. Mine isn't bad ass at all. Mostly stock stuff this year with brodix heads. I replace the rods this year but before that it was SRP pistons, Stock 7/16s rods, 366 grain truck crank, 454 4 bolt block. It is a heavy pig.

OK, Iron Eagles aren't worth messing with, I have old iron sportsman IIs on my regal, was hoping to upgrade if you had Pro1s, although I don't know why I am bothering, I am in the same boat you are, tired of the old small block, want a big block in the regal too!

I agree for the most part, trucks need smaller cams for towing, pulling, etc. But with that small of duration your dynamic compression may be pretty high even at 9:1 static. That may be when you need the heavier springs in the dizzy.

As for the Camaro, I would consider that streetable. full interior, pump gas, street legal. Nice ride.

Same boat as me. I called me brother on the way home from the track, he says, "are you driving it right now?". I said, "Yeah, why?". He replies, "Man I need to get the carpet and padding back in my truck". Just last summer I built a 4L80E for it with a transbrake. No more buzzing down the freeway in the slow lane. Now I can cruise 75 mph at 2500 RPM with my 3.73 gears and OD after I hit the cruise control button I converted over to lock the TCC. I lost a tenth or two with the heaveir trans but it was worth it.

I agree that you don't race dynos but it is hard to tune streetablity on a race track and I will tell you one day on the dyno has taken things from horrible to drive to tire smoke and power with caddy like idle. My 454s Qjet on gas drove horrible, after if was a race car. It would roll the 37s and even got 2nd at the truck pulls against some semi heavy hitters in the stock class. Of course when it had the turbo charger it was just stupid.

I think we're on the same page. I've put friends stuff I help them build on engine dynos before, never been to a chassis dyno though. Once its in the car its just at the track or the street driving.

You should still have my number, I have a truck and will have a trailer soon Anytime you want to blow up your motor at the track let me know. I'll video it, and drag you home.

That's awesome Jesse, thanks for the offer. If you would of been there I probably would of warmed up the bottle to 1000 psi and ran it again with the 175 pills. But the 250 shot I would at least have to swap to a victor intake or similar, and put in some race gas. I never did gap the rings for juice when I put that together back in 97 or so. And those KB hyper pistons have high top ring lands, I am definitely pushing my luck on pump gas already.

 

[80' 427]

I was thinking about OD but with the Big shot and the power it may have now I was thinking I was pushing a 4l80e. Maybe not but my buddies that have these funny whistles on there cars claim a 80 can't be built tough enough. Of course some of them are in the 8s.

On the 383 it never pings under load just cruising the country in OD. If I drop it to D it never has problems. My opinion is unless there is a hair drier hanging on the side most sbcs are a waste of time. A mildly built bbc will blows some pretty radical sbcs away for less money and will last much longer. Get a 70s truck motor with some 049 or 781s, nice solid and a little compression and you will be set.

My buddies have a chassis dyno and everything besides my buick (stupid HP tuners doesn't support it) have been on it and tuned for mpg and power. Yes peak power is great, drivablity is where the big gains are always felt.

 

[80' 427]

OK, Iron Eagles aren't worth messing with, I have old iron sportsman IIs on my regal, was hoping to upgrade if you had Pro1s, although I don't know why I am bothering, I am in the same boat you are, tired of the old small block, want a big block in the regal too!

I agree for the most part, trucks need smaller cams for towing, pulling, etc. But with that small of duration your dynamic compression may be pretty high even at 9:1 static. That may be when you need the heavier springs in the dizzy.

As for the Camaro, I would consider that streetable. full interior, pump gas, street legal. Nice ride.

Same boat as me. I called me brother on the way home from the track, he says, "are you driving it right now?". I said, "Yeah, why?". He replies, "Man I need to get the carpet and padding back in my truck". Just last summer I built a 4L80E for it with a transbrake. No more buzzing down the freeway in the slow lane. Now I can cruise 75 mph at 2500 RPM with my 3.73 gears and OD after I hit the cruise control button I converted over to lock the TCC. I lost a tenth or two with the heaveir trans but it was worth it.



I think we're on the same page. I've put friends stuff I help them build on engine dynos before, never been to a chassis dyno though. Once its in the car its just at the track or the street driving.



That's awesome Jesse, thanks for the offer. If you would of been there I probably would of warmed up the bottle to 1000 psi and ran it again with the 175 pills. But the 250 shot I would at least have to swap to a victor intake or similar, and put in some race gas. I never did gap the rings for juice when I put that together back in 97 or so. And those KB hyper pistons have high top ring lands, I am definitely pushing my luck on pump gas already.

Those KBs are mostly made of glass, when they let go you will most likely have to go to a new engine so then will be your bbc chance.