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Ultimate 10 bolt axles

Csm Davis said:
Okay so I didn't put tires and power or driving style in on purpose so many of you guys would scream D60! just like several already have. I have D60, 14bolt, 9 inch and even 5 ton axles sitting here ready to be used. But I think that a lightweight axle that is built right will out live a stock D60 and give better overall performance.
So lets talk center sections is a high pinion 44 center that much than the 8.5 10 bolt? Or 9 inch? Or high 9?
Also let's not forget the rear axle 8.5 10 bolt, make it full float? 9 inch? New half ton axle with disk brakes? Wanting to stay light and higher center so half ton size.
Click to expand...
Supposedly, a HP D44 has a stronger ring and pinion than a standard pinion.
IIRC it’s because moving it up puts the pinion back on the drive side of the gear and is also a less aggressive angle than a low pinion. Same would be said for a D60 HP

The 10 bolt rear is notorious for losing pinion and carrier bearings. They aren’t as robust as any of the other axles you mentioned, so full floating one doesn’t reward you much

I don’t have much data on the 9” HP
 
A long time ago, I put a lot of time/money into 10 bolts and 12 bolts.

Weight turned out be the killer of them. The heavier the vehicle with the bigger the tire and greater power... more likely to have problems. Can't have all three and better off only having one of them. Kind of like a Toyota.
 
CyberSniper said:
A long time ago, I put a lot of time/money into 10 bolts and 12 bolts.

Weight turned out be the killer of them. The heavier the vehicle with the bigger the tire and greater power... more likely to have problems. Can't have all three and better off only having one of them. Kind of like a Toyota.
Click to expand...

The thing over there in my avatar has a 10 bolt and 12 bolt in it (welded rear, lockright in the front). Never broke the axles, even after upgrading from 40s to the 44s in the picture. The trick was it was severely underpowered (bone stock TBI 350 out of a G30 van) with a 465/208 and it weighed almost nothing. If the fuel tank was empty four guys could move the back of it around fairly easily. In fact, it was so light the back floated in water when the gas tank was empty. I ran the rear tires with 1psi (or less) in them and the fronts I left 3psi in them. The shafts would wind up like you wouldn't believe in the snow and the flanges on the rear shaft I always expected to bend off when doing donuts on dry asphalt... but they held. Was spooky as hell to watch the pinion turn on the rear axle but the tires didn't, the leaf springs would eventually wind up, then all that energy would release. Eventually knife-edged a couple sets of 12 bolt shafts and one set of 10 bolt shafts before it was parked over ten years ago.

I did nearly lose a joint when I was at full steering lock trying to drive up the side of a Cadillac Deville. The tack weld on the cap cracked but it held.

My 84K10 (which was in the Rigs of CK5 calendar way back in 2005) with cut 33" TSLs and a very healthy 305 (technically 315, 275hp or so)/700R4/208 weighed 1500lbs more. I broke shafts in it several times (lockrights front and rear, the front one migrated to the thing in the avatar).
 
I've wheeled a '90 K5 since the late-90's and have gone through several iterations. I bought the rig in '94 with 49k on the clock and it was all stock except for 32" mud tires and never used for anything but snowy roads. Stock Gov-lock in the rear 10-bolt grenaded pretty early in life but only after it was stolen and wheeled hard before being stripped. It was covered in mud with a big dent in the front bumper when the police found it sitting on blocks. When they pulled the rear diff cover it had a lot of water and mud in it. By the time I went on my first real trailride (as opposed to playing around in a little mud) it had the following:

Rear - Detroit Trutrac, 4.10 gears, fairly fresh rebuild, and the factory 30-spline shafts (pre-'88 or '89 had 28 spline shafts)
Front - Eaton Posi, 4.10 gears, fairly fresh rebuild, factory shafts, Warn locking hubs.

Low powered automatic and was running 33" mud radials. Didn't run it real hard but did run difficult trails and regularly feathered the brakes when applying the gas to get the limited slips to lock up. Then stepped up to 35" radial muds and slightly harder trails. I broke two front axle u-joints during this time but it was always at the tire that was down in a rut and with the wheels turned and dragging the brake. After learning to avoid that situation I ran for years on progressively harder trails with no issues.

Later swapped in a 14FF rear with welded diff and converted the front to 8-lug. Ran several more years with no issues. While I had never broke the rear 10-bolt going to the 14FF gave me more confidence. If you break the front axle at least most of the times you can still drive out of the trail in 2wd. If you break a rear axle, especially a semi-float 10 bolt, you can be really screwed.

Last iteration was going to a D60 front. Bought a complete running, but very rusty, '78 K30 SRW for $750. Pulled the D60 out and sold the 350 engine, SM465, and rear axle to recoup most of my cost. Put new bearings in the D60, rebuilt the king pins (just bushings), slapped a Lock-Right and new Spicer joints. With skinny 38" TSLs I did break one of the original and old necked down inner shafts and replaced those with Spicer non-necked down shafts. Then broke a couple 30-spline stubs so replaced those with Yukon 35 spline stubs and flanges. After those mods I've had zero issues with the D60 even after going to 39.5x15.5 TSL's.

I have a hard time recommending spending a ton of money on a 10-bolt, but that is also based on what myself and several friends have spent on 1-ton axles. I have maybe $400-$500 in a rear 14FF that includes all new bearings and seals, disk brakes, and welded diff. For the front D60 I probably have around $2,500 in it including new bearings and seals, Lock-right, 35-spline stubs and flanges, new inners and joints, etc... When it comes to rear axles I don't think there is anyway you can compare a 10-bolt to a 14FF especially considering how cheap a 14FF is. You will never make a rear 10-bolt as strong as a stock 14FF regardless of how much money you throw at it. A little different story on a front 10-bolt vs. D60 in regards to price mainly because of how much a D60 can go for. However I still question the wisdom of throwing thousands of $$ at a front 10-bolt for D44. So maybe you can make it as strong as a stock D60, but where do you go to from that point?

For the comment about the HP (high pinion) axles, generally a high pinion D44 or D60 has a stronger ring and pinion when used in a front axle application. The normal low pinion setup is designed for a rear axle and thus only one gearset. When you use the same center section in the front axle application you are now running on the coast side of the ring and pinion when driving forward, and obviously the gears were not optimized to be the strongest in this setup. The high pinion setup has the gears running on the drive, or stronger, side of the gears and thus are stronger in a front axle application. However using a HP D44 or D60 in the rear agains put you running on the coast side of the gears when driving forward.
 
Love you guy's but didn't ask about changing out to tons. I have tons and will use them in an appropriate build. I want build a lighter half-ton rig that will never go rock crawling, just light mud and overlanding trails.
 
6.2Blazer said:
I've wheeled a '90 K5 since the late-90's and have gone through several iterations. I bought the rig in '94 with 49k on the clock and it was all stock except for 32" mud tires and never used for anything but snowy roads. Stock Gov-lock in the rear 10-bolt grenaded pretty early in life but only after it was stolen and wheeled hard before being stripped. It was covered in mud with a big dent in the front bumper when the police found it sitting on blocks. When they pulled the rear diff cover it had a lot of water and mud in it. By the time I went on my first real trailride (as opposed to playing around in a little mud) it had the following:

Rear - Detroit Trutrac, 4.10 gears, fairly fresh rebuild, and the factory 30-spline shafts (pre-'88 or '89 had 28 spline shafts)
Front - Eaton Posi, 4.10 gears, fairly fresh rebuild, factory shafts, Warn locking hubs.

Low powered automatic and was running 33" mud radials. Didn't run it real hard but did run difficult trails and regularly feathered the brakes when applying the gas to get the limited slips to lock up. Then stepped up to 35" radial muds and slightly harder trails. I broke two front axle u-joints during this time but it was always at the tire that was down in a rut and with the wheels turned and dragging the brake. After learning to avoid that situation I ran for years on progressively harder trails with no issues.

Later swapped in a 14FF rear with welded diff and converted the front to 8-lug. Ran several more years with no issues. While I had never broke the rear 10-bolt going to the 14FF gave me more confidence. If you break the front axle at least most of the times you can still drive out of the trail in 2wd. If you break a rear axle, especially a semi-float 10 bolt, you can be really screwed.

Last iteration was going to a D60 front. Bought a complete running, but very rusty, '78 K30 SRW for $750. Pulled the D60 out and sold the 350 engine, SM465, and rear axle to recoup most of my cost. Put new bearings in the D60, rebuilt the king pins (just bushings), slapped a Lock-Right and new Spicer joints. With skinny 38" TSLs I did break one of the original and old necked down inner shafts and replaced those with Spicer non-necked down shafts. Then broke a couple 30-spline stubs so replaced those with Yukon 35 spline stubs and flanges. After those mods I've had zero issues with the D60 even after going to 39.5x15.5 TSL's.

I have a hard time recommending spending a ton of money on a 10-bolt, but that is also based on what myself and several friends have spent on 1-ton axles. I have maybe $400-$500 in a rear 14FF that includes all new bearings and seals, disk brakes, and welded diff. For the front D60 I probably have around $2,500 in it including new bearings and seals, Lock-right, 35-spline stubs and flanges, new inners and joints, etc... When it comes to rear axles I don't think there is anyway you can compare a 10-bolt to a 14FF especially considering how cheap a 14FF is. You will never make a rear 10-bolt as strong as a stock 14FF regardless of how much money you throw at it. A little different story on a front 10-bolt vs. D60 in regards to price mainly because of how much a D60 can go for. However I still question the wisdom of throwing thousands of $$ at a front 10-bolt for D44. So maybe you can make it as strong as a stock D60, but where do you go to from that point?

For the comment about the HP (high pinion) axles, generally a high pinion D44 or D60 has a stronger ring and pinion when used in a front axle application. The normal low pinion setup is designed for a rear axle and thus only one gearset. When you use the same center section in the front axle application you are now running on the coast side of the ring and pinion when driving forward, and obviously the gears were not optimized to be the strongest in this setup. The high pinion setup has the gears running on the drive, or stronger, side of the gears and thus are stronger in a front axle application. However using a HP D44 or D60 in the rear agains put you running on the coast side of the gears when driving forward.
Click to expand...
For clarification, my HP comment was for the front, for the exact reasons about the coast/drive side of the gear
 
Am I reading right, that very few people seem to have an issue with the axleshaft splines on the 10 bolts? In other words, not a huge benefit to step up to the 30 spline (?) axles over 28? From this thread, it seems a majority of issues come from the shafts themselves, the u-joints, or the hubs.

I'd like to put a tru-trac in the front of mine, I'm surprised to hear about the breakage that has occurred with those. I don't run hard either, sounds like CSM and I are looking at similar usage. Never broken anything up front (all stock 80's parts, except balljoints) but lost the rear gov-lock on the street. For mild use my opinion is the gov-lock in the rear is near impossible to beat, except in the 10 bolts. If sticking with a 10 bolt, that certainly wouldn't be my go-to.
 
dyeager535 said:
Am I reading right, that very few people seem to have an issue with the axleshaft splines on the 10 bolts? In other words, not a huge benefit to step up to the 30 spline (?) axles over 28? From this thread, it seems a majority of issues come from the shafts themselves, the u-joints, or the hubs.

I'd like to put a tru-trac in the front of mine, I'm surprised to hear about the breakage that has occurred with those. I don't run hard either, sounds like CSM and I are looking at similar usage. Never broken anything up front (all stock 80's parts, except balljoints) but lost the rear gov-lock on the street. For mild use my opinion is the gov-lock in the rear is near impossible to beat, except in the 10 bolts. If sticking with a 10 bolt, that certainly wouldn't be my go-to.
Click to expand...

For a rear 10-bolt, the 30-spline versions of the shaft will be stronger because the shaft is larger. For the front, the factory inner shafts are necked down so not much difference between the stock 30 vs. 28 spline shafts. Plus the u-joints and stubs are the same.
 
Lol

I was going to link a CK5 post from 2008 that @1977k5 was talking about the strength differences. Then I realized that you posted in there too, essentially saying the same thing.
 
Csm Davis said:
Love you guy's but didn't ask about changing out to tons. I have tons and will use them in an appropriate build. I want build a lighter half-ton rig that will never go rock crawling, just light mud and overlanding trails.
Click to expand...

I understand where this reply is coming from, but also think that it's legitimate advice and opinion about swapping axles. When you say "lighter" rig I'm assuming 33-35" size tires, reasonable power levels, and no bashing on the throttle. Anyway, back to the original question from my experience:

For the rear 10-bolt I would do the following:
- full case aftermarket differential such as a Detroit locker or Detroit Truetrac. A good limited slip should be a little easier on parts. $500-$800.
- 30-spline alloy shafts for $280....make sure the above diff is a 30-spline version
- fresh rebuilt and set up correctly....old parts will break sooner, and if not set up correctly it will not be as strong.....$250-$300 for a rebuild kit
- pick the gear ratio of choice but would recommend not going to low...don't really consider this an upgrade in strength rather just fine tuning what gears you need for the tires
I ran this type of setup for many years on 33's and 35's doing light to medium wheeling with no issues.

For the front 10-bolt:
- for light mud and overlanding I would be tempted to just leave it stock....match the gearing to the rear and just make sure everything is fresh
- if you need or want more traction, a limited slip in the front
- next step would be alloy front shafts and good joints...looks like you can do this for around $1,000
- if you start with an aftermarket front diff/locker/posi from the start get the 30-spline version....there is no cost difference in the front shafts between 28 and 30 spline versions
- same comment about fresh parts and setup as the rear diff
 
6.2Blazer said:
I understand where this reply is coming from, but also think that it's legitimate advice and opinion about swapping axles. When you say "lighter" rig I'm assuming 33-35" size tires, reasonable power levels, and no bashing on the throttle. Anyway, back to the original question from my experience:

For the rear 10-bolt I would do the following:
- full case aftermarket differential such as a Detroit locker or Detroit Truetrac. A good limited slip should be a little easier on parts. $500-$800.
- 30-spline alloy shafts for $280....make sure the above diff is a 30-spline version
- fresh rebuilt and set up correctly....old parts will break sooner, and if not set up correctly it will not be as strong.....$250-$300 for a rebuild kit
- pick the gear ratio of choice but would recommend not going to low...don't really consider this an upgrade in strength rather just fine tuning what gears you need for the tires
I ran this type of setup for many years on 33's and 35's doing light to medium wheeling with no issues.

For the front 10-bolt:
- for light mud and overlanding I would be tempted to just leave it stock....match the gearing to the rear and just make sure everything is fresh
- if you need or want more traction, a limited slip in the front
- next step would be alloy front shafts and good joints...looks like you can do this for around $1,000
- if you start with an aftermarket front diff/locker/posi from the start get the 30-spline version....there is no cost difference in the front shafts between 28 and 30 spline versions
- same comment about fresh parts and setup as the rear diff
Click to expand...

Thanks 6.2Blazer this is some of the advice I was seeking.
I have a 90 K5 6.2L 700r4 NP208 with 30 spline axles.
What I was thinking of was eaton e-lockers front and rear, trusses front and rear, links front and rear, 8 lug dually hubs front and rear, 30 spline drive flanges front and rear, air bags all 4 corners. The new rear shafts would be custom chromemoly and the front stubs would be also. Gears of 4.11 probably according to tire size 35-37" crossover and high steer so probably new knuckles. Did I miss anything?
 
@Csm Davis why do drw on a 1/2 - 3/4 ton front with tiny wheel bearings and ball joints ?

and they would need to be aftermarket hubs for drw on the front as the factory didnt do them except 1ton stuff .

as for drw in the rear this tends to narrow up the track width .

and drive flanges in the rear would = full float conversion kit and thats crazy money . just do a 3/4 ton full float axle swap for the full float beef .

and 35-37" tires and 700r4 tons of guys here will tell you go DEEP on gears like 4.88 or 5.13 so you dont lug the trans down and kill it or make it hunt gears on highway or hills on highway .
 
sweetk30 said:
@Csm Davis why do drw on a 1/2 - 3/4 ton front with tiny wheel bearings and ball joints ?

and they would need to be aftermarket hubs for drw on the front as the factory didnt do them except 1ton stuff .

as for drw in the rear this tends to narrow up the track width .

and drive flanges in the rear would = full float conversion kit and thats crazy money . just do a 3/4 ton full float axle swap for the full float beef .

and 35-37" tires and 700r4 tons of guys here will tell you go DEEP on gears like 4.88 or 5.13 so you dont lug the trans down and kill it or make it hunt gears on highway or hills on highway .
Click to expand...

DRW hubs off 1 ton all 4 corners. And yes this means full floater rear.
D60 spindles at all 4 corners so no small bearings or aftermarket hubs and track width will be wider.
As to gearing okay 4.56 and secret sauce for transmission.
 
I have a Warn full float kit in my Blazer. It was on the market about a month. I have chrome moly 30 spline floater axles. The outer part is basically a bolted on Dana 60 front hub made by Warn, bearings and warning hubs. It came with brackets to use the 85 Caddy rear discs with ebrake.
 
frankin5 said:
I have a Warn full float kit in my Blazer. It was on the market about a month. I have chrome moly 30 spline floater axles. The outer part is basically a bolted on Dana 60 front hub made by Warn, bearings and warning hubs. It came with brackets to use the 85 Caddy rear discs with ebrake.
Click to expand...
I had one of those and then sold it, it was nice but I went with a 14bff to go bigger tires.
 
Csm Davis said:
Thanks 6.2Blazer this is some of the advice I was seeking.
I have a 90 K5 6.2L 700r4 NP208 with 30 spline axles.
What I was thinking of was eaton e-lockers front and rear, trusses front and rear, links front and rear, 8 lug dually hubs front and rear, 30 spline drive flanges front and rear, air bags all 4 corners. The new rear shafts would be custom chromemoly and the front stubs would be also. Gears of 4.11 probably according to tire size 35-37" crossover and high steer so probably new knuckles. Did I miss anything?
Click to expand...

Trying to figure out if you are being serious or not......and leaning towards you just being sarcastic?
 
As mentioned before, it's pretty hard to beat a 6 lug 9.5 rear for 6 lug beef regardless of budget level. That would also be a good center section to start with if you want to build a decent strength higher clearance lighter weight 6 lug axle. Or use a D60 center. Of course that begs the question: why not just use a full float D60 and make the hubs 6 lug. You're creating the same thing.

I did all this in '98 when warn came out with their full float kits and chromo front axle line. Trussed full float 12b rear with detroit, Trussed 4340'd 10Bwith ARB in the front running spicers joints since there were no other options. It all worked well within its limits but the same could be achieved with a chromo shafted front and a 6 lug 9.5 rear. You're still only good up to a 37" tire and even at that point you're not using it very hard. Its quite practical with 35s.

And as mentioned a lot before, how you drive it matters huge and everyone is different and you may just have to try it to see.

My advice would be to skip this:
"What I was thinking of was eaton e-lockers front and rear, trusses front and rear, links front and rear, 8 lug dually hubs front and rear, 30 spline drive flanges front and rear, air bags all 4 corners. The new rear shafts would be custom chromemoly and the front stubs would be also. Gears of 4.11 probably according to tire size 35-37" crossover and high steer so probably new knuckles. Did I miss anything?"
and do a D60FF rear (or 35 spl semi float) with a regular 8 lug 10B or D44 front with whatever build list you like. As soon as you start putting big spindles, bearings and knuckles on the outers you ruined your weight savings and the "ground clearance advantage" is negligible when you consider that tube sizes are basically all the same and the low parts of a diff hang down ONLY right under the diff. Of the total clearance volume under an axle, the diff depth is a few square inches maybe. If you want many square inches of clearance you put on bigger tires and raise the tubes and the diff.

If you really want to max this out you don't need to invent anything. Spidertrax builds this stuff every day and it is brilliant. Max clearance, max strength and durability and minimum weight. If you want to throw a lot of money at axles you don't need to find ways to do it, the method is very clearly defined!
 
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