same reason why you don't run rancho shocks with deaver leafs, it's half assed.
CK5
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what do you guys think of this efi kit?
- Thread starter Kain
- Start date
same reason why you don't run rancho shocks with deaver leafs, it's half assed.
ekajkrats
1/2 ton status
Most of the (competitors) TBI kits have a version with and without a fuel pump. FiTech chooses to just separate them out.
Some people choose to upgrade their tank to one with that accommodates an internal pump for a clean install look, so a kit without a pump is the best option as there are too many different options for those that choose that route. Then others choose to run another line and do the external pump. And finally there is the option of the sump tank with a pump, such as FiTech's Fuel Command Center (FCC). That way there is minimal changes to the fuel system (if you want to return stock) and you don't have to run a return line back to the tank.
Team208Motorsports
Its Magic Bitch
Not a necessity but if you want the most out of your high dollar EFI, YES. Timing is the best way to control idle. Without timing control idle will be controlled with fuel. Yes both will use the IAC but to fast trim it will use timing. Fuel is not exactly fast trimming, nor is the IAC.
With timing control you can set what you need for every aspect. You can with re curve but who ,HONESTLY, knows what the best timing curve is......... I say it that way because every engine and rig is different. Also a great benefit to injection is lean cruise, save some gas........ You need proper timing to go with that though.
Electronic timing is not hard, its actually exactly like your old HEI. The VR trigger picks up the AC signal then the internal module takes over....... Small cap chevy, STOCK TBI, is the same but the module sends signal to the computer. Not scary!
Team208Motorsports
Its Magic Bitch
Fuel pump wise..... The absolute best thing you can do is run internal. Anything with pressure and flow demands will like it much better. External high pressure/high flow are pusher pumps not pullers. It does not take much to have a loud horrible flowing pump.
You da man.
Would kits like this run off of a factory TBI pump? If not, is there a high pressure pump that will fit in the original pumps place?
wetoolowdingbangow
1/2 ton status
I think you'd need a stronger pump. I haven't messed with tbi so I'm not sure if there regulating it after the pump but it takes like 14 psi?
I think it's as easy as putting in a pump similar to an ls motor. Internally the unit is limited to 58psi.
wetoolowdingbangow
1/2 ton status
I'm still reading up on controlling timing but again I don't think it's something I need in my specific scenario.
I could be wrong but hei is easy, cheap and reliable.
Lean cruise is something I need to read up on. I'm all for saving a bit of fuel but my rig gets trailered so it's not a huge deal. I'd probably want it if it was my dd though!
I could be wrong but hei is easy, cheap and reliable.
Lean cruise is something I need to read up on. I'm all for saving a bit of fuel but my rig gets trailered so it's not a huge deal. I'd probably want it if it was my dd though!
There are so many parameters that can change or be changed, these system ty to give you the most common. If you are looking at getting every ounce out of an engine, then this is not what you want. These low dollar EFI's are for general carb replacement. Unless it is sitting on a dino doing 5000rpm pulls, I doubt most of us could tell the difference in a "mild" engine.
Difference at altitude from a carb.....yes
Difference at incline from a carb....yes
Difference daily driving it......maybe.
Difference in milage from a carb....probably.
Difference from factory, properly working TBI....could not tell.
Now for you guys who want to install EFI on your "motors", video it. I want to see what happens when gasoline is sprayed on a motor.
I am assuming lots of fire. Because motors are electric powered. Engines are internal combustion. (Sorry for the rant).
Difference at altitude from a carb.....yes
Difference at incline from a carb....yes
Difference daily driving it......maybe.
Difference in milage from a carb....probably.
Difference from factory, properly working TBI....could not tell.
Now for you guys who want to install EFI on your "motors", video it. I want to see what happens when gasoline is sprayed on a motor.
I am assuming lots of fire. Because motors are electric powered. Engines are internal combustion. (Sorry for the rant).
This is kind of what I've been talking about the whole time. It *seems* that people don't really know EFI, but want it. Yet are afraid of the technology. I was there once myself, but it's not a rational viewpoint, at least from where I sit. Why would you trust your vehicles ability to run on: a computer, fueled by a pump running on electricity, fed with electronically operated injectors, using an IAC, TPS, CTS, MAP, oil pressure switch, and fuel pump relay (to name a couple lol) then worry about the ECM/PCM controlling ignition? OBD1 GM ignition control IS HEI.
Do you like the way EFI runs? Then yes, computer control of ignition is important, just as GM thought since ~1981.
The stock (not bored) BBC throttle body is capable of supporting 470+HP, I have no idea if they bore the BBC ones or not, I'm too lazy to go check. Are you looking to exceed that number? If so, obviously the BBC TBI system isn't going to cut it.
Can you make it run decent/good without controlling the distributor? Sure. You can make just as much power with a carb as you can EFI too. How much will it cost you to run a distributor that you can curve in ~400RPM increments, that includes a rev limiter, allows 20* timing at idle, and can be tuned from a laptop?
I would *assume* the rationale for leaving timing out of the systems is cost. It's not because it's better, otherwise GM would have done the same thing.
There was a comment above about the LS. Does the LS run good because GM removed computer control, or added it?
motor
[moh-ter]
noun
1.
a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.
Maybe the definition has been corrupted, but motor is apparently proper now too. It's been like that for years. Had this disagreement with the state when they were coming up with ways to control what types of propulsion were allowed on lakes here.
Team208Motorsports
Its Magic Bitch
I know. I just like to bug people about it. The 3 generations in front of me on my dads side were engine designers and inventors. I heard it from them all the time. "Steam motor" used to send my grandfather through the roof. Just like "gay" used to mean happy.
Now back to your previously scheduled EFI programing.
wetoolowdingbangow
1/2 ton status
It's true. I'm at a point in my life where I don't want to figure out every detail about efi but I want it. The reasoning for that is I work full time and go to school so I'm really maxed out on info at the moment but I want to learn everything about it in the future.
For now I just want the truck to run decent and put my fueling issues aside.
In the near future I'd really like to build a 5.3l turbo old school truck. That I would definitely make the investment to understand everything I can about efi and such.
For now I just want the truck to run decent and put my fueling issues aside.
In the near future I'd really like to build a 5.3l turbo old school truck. That I would definitely make the investment to understand everything I can about efi and such.
Don't jump quickly into EFI. If your dream is an LS motor, don't waste time, money, or brain cells trying to figure out some stop-gap. It really is pointless. The LS-architecture motors are superior in any and every regard, and if you know that is what you want, go down that road. The very, very short answer is that GM likely spent hundreds of millions designing the LS and the system that operates it, no aftermarket EFI company will ever have that luxury, it's just not possible. When you are familiar with the particular EFI system you are dealing with, it is a LOT easier. But the only way to become familiar is to dive into it yourself. If you don't know how it works, you will have all sorts of problems when something goes wrong with it.
If there are fueling issues with the present setup, fix them. Carb, TBI, LS, whatever, they can all run very well. But if you don't put any time into them, it will be (falsely) appealing to go with something else.
I SHOULD have gone with a diesel do to my love of MPG, but instead I went TPI as it was the hot thing at the time. Doing it again, it would be pretty simple: economy=diesel, everything else=LS.
Of course, I fully realize that people hear advice, make their own decisions contrary to that, and find out for themselves.
But...I feel I'm pretty pragmatic. If you enjoy bouncing around from one project to another, and working on your rig all the time, that is perfectly fine, and it justifies swapping things out as you progress. Some people really do enjoy trying out different things on their rigs, and if that is you, why not?
wetoolowdingbangow
1/2 ton status
Don't jump quickly into EFI. If your dream is an LS motor, don't waste time, money, or brain cells trying to figure out some stop-gap. It really is pointless. The LS-architecture motors are superior in any and every regard, and if you know that is what you want, go down that road. The very, very short answer is that GM likely spent hundreds of millions designing the LS and the system that operates it, no aftermarket EFI company will ever have that luxury, it's just not possible. When you are familiar with the particular EFI system you are dealing with, it is a LOT easier. But the only way to become familiar is to dive into it yourself. If you don't know how it works, you will have all sorts of problems when something goes wrong with it.
If there are fueling issues with the present setup, fix them. Carb, TBI, LS, whatever, they can all run very well. But if you don't put any time into them, it will be (falsely) appealing to go with something else.
I SHOULD have gone with a diesel do to my love of MPG, but instead I went TPI as it was the hot thing at the time. Doing it again, it would be pretty simple: economy=diesel, everything else=LS.
Of course, I fully realize that people hear advice, make their own decisions contrary to that, and find out for themselves.
I can appreciate that. I often think about doing an ls swap...I just opened up my 350 that came with my blazer and it's very fresh inside so I'll probably run that for a while. Nothing special is needed for rock crawling in my case but engine building is a really interesting thing to me. I'd really love to put a motor together for my truck at some point even though I know I'll be into it way more than a turn key.
I need to upgrade to a diesel 4wd for a tow rig so that's where money is going in the immediate future.
My reasoning on efi with hei was to just get away from a carb more or less. That in itself would be an improvement.
It would just be an improvement that could be much more efficient with more parts.
It would just be an improvement that could be much more efficient with more parts.
If you are going to get away from a carb, get COMPLETELY away from it. Curving an old-style HEI distributor is a lot more hassle than sitting there with a computer doing it. GM started using ECM controlled distributors when they were still using carbs (CCC). Idle quality alone is huge, all you have to do is set your timing at 8* at idle, then bump it up to 20* to hear and feel the difference.
Without question, timing needs to be what the engine wants. Being able to adjust fueling and timing at the same time is crucial. An engine may ping under load because timing is too much at that point and leading up to that point, OR it could be lack of fuel at that point and leading up to it. What do the non-ECM controlled EFI setups do when you hit knock? Just gladly let you keep pounding away at the pistons? At least with EFI, if your gas gets old (BTDT), the ECM will retard timing to attempt to keep you from destroying the engine. If timing or fueling is off, you'll get pinging, sometimes before your ear hears it. A datalog will show this, and allow you to adjust fuel and timing to prevent the issue. No more weights, springs, or vacuum hoses to mess with anymore. Hook up your laptop (and probably phone in some cases anymore) pull up whatever program you are using, and go to town.
Yes, it takes time and effort, yes, it's better.
Especially if you can go with a small-cap distributor. Saves a bit of room in back.
Here's your distributor "curve" with ECM control, plus the added timing for power enrichment:
Dumbed down a bit (since there are obviously other SA modifiers on the left) but pick a cell, change the number, done. RPM on left, MAP across the top.
While the idea of "3x3" tables is hard for me to swallow, I don't think anything really has such horrible resolution behind the scenes - it wouldn't run. That's just a dumbed-down user interface, from which it uses a lot of other data to interpolate the real tables.
Also, selling EFI kits by "HP" makes HP sound more significant than it is. The only differences for bigger or smaller motors is the size of the injectors and the fuel pump you need. All the operation is exactly the same. Now when you're talking blown top fuel, the spark gets way more aggressive, but for all "normal" stuff, the equations are the same for 1.8L or 8.1L. The only real functional differences are whether they're using MAP, MAF, Alpha-N or some blending to calculate the fuel required. The volumetric efficiency of the engine across load and RPM is required no matter whether you type it in or calculate it from "self-learning".
Also, selling EFI kits by "HP" makes HP sound more significant than it is. The only differences for bigger or smaller motors is the size of the injectors and the fuel pump you need. All the operation is exactly the same. Now when you're talking blown top fuel, the spark gets way more aggressive, but for all "normal" stuff, the equations are the same for 1.8L or 8.1L. The only real functional differences are whether they're using MAP, MAF, Alpha-N or some blending to calculate the fuel required. The volumetric efficiency of the engine across load and RPM is required no matter whether you type it in or calculate it from "self-learning".
Ned Kelly
1/2 ton status
For me, I do not foresee any motor changes happening - no time or funds for an LS swap. I have a mild BBC with RV torque cam, otherwise stock, and I'm happy with the output. It would be nice to get out of the 80's fuel delivery technology.
As I read more, I think there is some good advice here on getting away from factory/variable timing controls. Best to 'lock out' this variable, and let the Fitech ECU doing the timing for you. Otherwise, your not optimizing the whole purpose of getting away from a carb.
That said, looks like the $795 unit is a little too bare bones to be worthwhile. Better to spend $200 more on the next higher up Fitech units that will control timing. Good point on changing to a smaller non HEI cap to save space too - another plus.
I'm in go big rush to change over, so I'm going to wait to see what Holley's Sniper EFI will offer this coming June/2016. It is supposed to be a very similar unit to FiTech. It's so close to release, I may as well wait and see if either one has any advantage over the other (or not). In reality, I don't expect either one will be leaps or bounds better, I just want to know the full product options before I commit to spending funds on the EFI swap.
As I read more, I think there is some good advice here on getting away from factory/variable timing controls. Best to 'lock out' this variable, and let the Fitech ECU doing the timing for you. Otherwise, your not optimizing the whole purpose of getting away from a carb.
That said, looks like the $795 unit is a little too bare bones to be worthwhile. Better to spend $200 more on the next higher up Fitech units that will control timing. Good point on changing to a smaller non HEI cap to save space too - another plus.
I'm in go big rush to change over, so I'm going to wait to see what Holley's Sniper EFI will offer this coming June/2016. It is supposed to be a very similar unit to FiTech. It's so close to release, I may as well wait and see if either one has any advantage over the other (or not). In reality, I don't expect either one will be leaps or bounds better, I just want to know the full product options before I commit to spending funds on the EFI swap.
