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Why NOT tow with a shackle flip?

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Simple things like shocks can also make a large difference, or it can also be 100% mental. Or tires. My K5 rides way smoother with the bias TSL's on it than it does the radial BFG's, and this has absolutely nothing to do with springs.
 
miniwally said:
So lets have the discussion about "what effective spring rate is safe to tow X load with a vehicle that weighs Y and has a wheel base of Z. I will be using the following equipment blah blah blah.

Or did I just over simplify this?

Nope that's pretty much exactly what we are arguing, a difference of opinion.

I've had rear blocks and the 'flip, both. I have towed with both. I personally feel that the blocks are safer as long as the u bolts are tight.
 
84_Chevy_K10 said:
Nope that's pretty much exactly what we are arguing, a difference of opinion.

I've had rear blocks and the 'flip, both. I have towed with both. I personally feel that the blocks are safer as long as the u bolts are tight.

The shackle being a tension style or compression style has nothing to do with this. What does is the affect the two different styles have on effective spring rate.
Did I get this part correct?

If that is correct.
Then the shackle flip itself is safe to tow with. This is the bracketry and the shackle itself only.

What you are saying is that the shackle angle created by the shackle flip bracket creates a SPRING RATE that is to low to safely tow.
Is this correct?

So spring rates are what you are pointing your finger at. Right?
 
miniwally said:
Then the shackle flip itself is safe to tow with. This is the bracketry and the shackle itself only.

Yes.

What you are saying is that the shackle angle created by the shackle flip bracket creates a SPRING RATE that is to low to safely tow.
Is this correct?

It's not so much that it creates a spring rate that is too low to safely tow. It might, and it can, but that is not why.

The reason I do not think shackle flips are a good idea for towing is:

When the stock style tension shackled springs compress, the springs get effectively, "Stiffer". The more you load them, the "stiffer" they get. I put this in quotes because the actual spring rate doesn't change, but because of the effect of the shackle's new angle, the percieved spring rate is higher.

With compression shackles, once the shackle breaks 90*, which is where the majority of setups are at ride height, the springs begin to get "softer." The more you load them, the, "softer" they get. I personally believe this can have a negative effect on handling, especially in windy conditions, when trucks pass you, etc. I've towed some scary trailers in my time and the last thing I want to have is a suspension that lacks the control I feel is necessary for safe driving.
 
But Tim thats effective spring rate.

I can agree that the effective spring rate can get to low to be safe to tow with but it's not the Shackle flip that is the problem its the effective spring rate created by the flip and the shackle angle that results.

If you want to tow with a lifted rig you are going to have trade offs. I know because I just went from the 95 Ford F250 lifted 4" to the 05 Duramax and can't belive the differance in handling of the same loads.

I do wish at times I had my 35s and doubler back for getting around to the snowmobile trail heads right now.
 
miniwally said:
If you want to tow with a lifted rig you are going to have trade offs. I know because I just went from the 95 Ford F250 lifted 4" to the 05 Duramax and can't belive the differance in handling of the same loads.

Yep, that's why my tow rigs have all been stock. I don't like towing with a lifted truck at all.
 
Well, my curiosity got the best of me, so when I left work I searched the parking lot for newer Dodges and found two. I do not know what year they are, only they are the newest body style. Both were 3/4 ton crew cabs, Cummins and autos, and both had COMPRESSION STYLE shackles. Now obviously Tim, the 1 ton you have ordered may be different, but these 3/4 tons had in effect shackle flips. Take this how you want, but to me it is just more proof that a shackle flip is safe for towing.
 
Fine, Tyler. A shackle flip is safe for towing. So is a 12" suspension lift with stacked blocks and no shocks. Go have at it, tow the world with your shackle flip!!
 
BlueBlazer62 said:
What if your rig has one? Just wondering.

My rig already has a transmission I don't care for, axles with zero aftermarket that I'm not too exited about, and it's a Dodge, which I don't much care for either....so I suppose I'll just live with it. :mad:

I'm probably going to have air bags anyway.
 
Wow, no offense, but I wouldn't pay 35k for something I didn't really want.
 
fordcummins1 said:
You spent all that money for a brand new truck, and thats how you feel about it? :confused: That kinda sucks.

It's the lesser of evils thing.

It's a nice truck.

We all know we want to be driving a new GM with the features we want but they don't make them anymore.
 
84_Chevy_K10 said:
Fine, Tyler. A shackle flip is safe for towing. So is a 12" suspension lift with stacked blocks and no shocks. Go have at it, tow the world with your shackle flip!!

Unbunch your panties, man.

I think all he was getting at goes back to the fact that the compression style shackle is fine, its the act of lifting your tow rig that makes it inherently more dangerous, not the flip itself. At least this is the point i got out of it:confused:
 
Hmm, actually I'm rather surprised that the heavy end of the light Dodges are coming in compression shackles now. As was mentioned, the natural tendency of tension shackles to effectively increase the rate of the positive arched leaf spring as load increases has resulted in most all trucks in the class running tension shackles for many years. It's kind of a freebie in that you can have effectively lighter rate springs for unloaded use, and dramatically higher effective rating as the load increases. As already stated, depending on shackle length, spring arch, spring length, static shackle angle and so on, it may not drop off dramatically, but why they would go with compression shackle on a "working" class truck (as opposed to something like an S10 or Toy) is beyond me. I don't see any benefit at all since it would be doing good just to keep a linear rate, much less increasing. Hmmm, I wonder if it's simply more reliant on a secondary overload pack or something? Just curious, but did those Dodges have secondary overload packs?

Edit: And for the record guys, lets try to stick to open discussion. Don't poke at someone just to get their back up and don't be overly sensative to disagreement. There have been far too many posts lately that degrade into persional attacks, and the moderators are getting a little tired of it. Not a real problem here yet, but I can see it heading that way, so lets curb it before it goes too far.
 
I didn't pay attention to overloads. You say a tension shackle greatly increases spring rate as the shackle changes angle, but if you don't mind me asking, how have you quantified your opinion? It would be hard to know without some sort of laborotory testing:dunno:
 
joez said:
Unbunch your panties, man.

I think all he was getting at goes back to the fact that the compression style shackle is fine, its the act of lifting your tow rig that makes it inherently more dangerous, not the flip itself. At least this is the point i got out of it:confused:
so on the new dodges how is the compression shackle setup? does it hang below the frame like a aftermarket one? just wondering if the rear springs have more or less arch, cause you could make a no-lift shackle flip to the compression type shackle by raising it higher on the frame. if the compression vs tension shackle makes no difference is it excessive spring arch that causes the problems?
 
BlueBlazer62 said:
I didn't pay attention to overloads. You say a tension shackle greatly increases spring rate as the shackle changes angle, but if you don't mind me asking, how have you quantified your opinion? It would be hard to know without some sort of laborotory testing:dunno:

Now you're questioning suspension theory? Why don't you just go to pirate and ask them how they calculated their roll center, antisquat, etc. figures?????

Now even I want this thread to die.......
 
don't be overly sensative to disagreement
I wasn't even asking you, I was asking Russ. I understand the theory and agree with it, its the quantification (if thats even a word) of the theory I am questioning.
 
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