Weird, I was told the chunk would only fit one way....maybe the housing itself is one-directional?
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
Weird, I was told the chunk would only fit one way....maybe the housing itself is one-directional?
I am not too up to speed on Ford stuff. I know that alot of Muscle car guys run 9"ers behind thier cars and alot of trail rigs run them also. Correct me if i am wrong though, but isnt a Ford 9" a 1/2ton or 3/4 ton axle? If so, what makes them better for running portals than say a 14bolt?
Just curious as to what the advantages of a Ford 9" are when compared to typical 1-ton axles.
Just curious as to what the advantages of a Ford 9" are when compared to typical 1-ton axles.
Short answer..... clearance.
You get a huge boost in clearance under the diffs because of the portal boxes at the wheels. I'd guess something like 6" more than a typical 1-ton setup. Even with a modest size tire, you get crazy clearance.
Second, you don't have to worry as much about the strength of the center section and axle shafts because you develop torque AT THE WHEEL through the final gear reduction in the portals (which is about 2:1 ratio). That takes a lot of the stresses off the ring & pinion and inner axle shafts.
Wait until you see the "underneath" shot of this Blazer, you're going to flip out at all the pumpkin clearance....
You get a huge boost in clearance under the diffs because of the portal boxes at the wheels. I'd guess something like 6" more than a typical 1-ton setup. Even with a modest size tire, you get crazy clearance.
Second, you don't have to worry as much about the strength of the center section and axle shafts because you develop torque AT THE WHEEL through the final gear reduction in the portals (which is about 2:1 ratio). That takes a lot of the stresses off the ring & pinion and inner axle shafts.
Wait until you see the "underneath" shot of this Blazer, you're going to flip out at all the pumpkin clearance....
Yeah i understand Portals and how they gain alot of clearance. I just didnt understand why the Ford 9" is such a popular choice, why not do a 14bff with portals? or a D60 with Portals? I understand the Portals take alot of stress of the Diff and so 1-ton strenght may not be needed, but wouldnt a 14bff portal axle be super strong?
OK, I understand your question now....
The simple answer to THAT one is ......gearing.
A stock Mog 404 axle has an overall ratio of 7.54:1 and is considered to be equivalent to about a 1.5 Ton axle in terms of strength. It would be a lot simpler to just bolt in a set and run 'em except that it would be miserable on the highway. This was the reason I originally bought that Viper 6-speed transmission with the double overdrive (.50:1 in 6th gear). It would have made the stock 404s totally highway friendly, but at the expense of a really complicated transmission/xfercase setup.....and I don't really want to shift that much. I like slushboxes.
The Ford 9" can be had with ratios down to 2.50:1 instead of the stock 3.54:1 of the stock 404 axle....that gives me an overall axle ratio in the 5.32:1 range which works beatifully with a 4L80E overdrive tranny....and I don't need a clutch pedal anymore.
A different problem with stock Mogs is that the pinion snouts on the 404s are ludicrously long and cannot be shortened. It makes them a nightmare to fit into trucks that also have engines (and oilpans). The Ford 9" is a really compact pinion setup so the packaging of the axle, especially up front is much easier to do.
The simple answer to THAT one is ......gearing.
A stock Mog 404 axle has an overall ratio of 7.54:1 and is considered to be equivalent to about a 1.5 Ton axle in terms of strength. It would be a lot simpler to just bolt in a set and run 'em except that it would be miserable on the highway. This was the reason I originally bought that Viper 6-speed transmission with the double overdrive (.50:1 in 6th gear). It would have made the stock 404s totally highway friendly, but at the expense of a really complicated transmission/xfercase setup.....and I don't really want to shift that much. I like slushboxes.
The Ford 9" can be had with ratios down to 2.50:1 instead of the stock 3.54:1 of the stock 404 axle....that gives me an overall axle ratio in the 5.32:1 range which works beatifully with a 4L80E overdrive tranny....and I don't need a clutch pedal anymore.
A different problem with stock Mogs is that the pinion snouts on the 404s are ludicrously long and cannot be shortened. It makes them a nightmare to fit into trucks that also have engines (and oilpans). The Ford 9" is a really compact pinion setup so the packaging of the axle, especially up front is much easier to do.
Last edited:
So basicaly the Ford 9" is just easier to work with?
Either or it all looks pretty damn cool, breaking away from the typical 56" sprung disked 14bff and 52" sprung highsteering d60 that all the rest of us do and think is super cool.
I dont know why you even thought you could keep them things wraped up in the box until Christmas, you should know better than that. If you had tried i am sure a CK5 member would have snuck over, opened the box and snapped some pics.
Either or it all looks pretty damn cool, breaking away from the typical 56" sprung disked 14bff and 52" sprung highsteering d60 that all the rest of us do and think is super cool.
I dont know why you even thought you could keep them things wraped up in the box until Christmas, you should know better than that. If you had tried i am sure a CK5 member would have snuck over, opened the box and snapped some pics.
There's nothing wrong with a setup like that....don't forget, what you're describing sounds a whole lot like what I was running up until now. It's simple and it works!
This is just something that I've been working out in my head for a few years as an idea that I really wanted to try. I didn't have the space, time, money or to be blunt...the fab skills to tackle it. But this project has taught me a lot and once I got the confidence from all the rust repair work, I decided it would be fun to take on this bigger challenge.
It's not something I've seen done too many times, and certainly nothing I've ever seen on a 1st Gen....so once it's all finished it will truly be a one-of-a-kind vehicle.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong...
IIRC, another advantage of the 9" is the gears themselves--specifically the "off-centered-ness" of the pinion gear in relation to the ring gear. I believe there's more overall contact between the teeth of the gears (more surface area) which makes the gears' teeth themselves stronger than the same size gears in some more like a Dana axle, where the pinion and ring gear meet on a different centerline.
Then when you combine that with aftermarket carriers and housing, you can basically end up with something *really* stout, especially compared to the other axles that are comparable in overall size.
Again, this is just what I've heard, but it makes sense. If you could really build up a 9" to withstand a lot of torque, seems that the only advantage a 14BFF would have would be it's super low-cost and availability.
I know some guys are impossibly anti-Ford to the point that they'd NEVER consider running a 9", but if you're building for performance, you'd think you'd want every advantage you could get, in terms of strength, aftermarket support, serviceability, etc...
Oh yeah, being able to yank out the 3rd member to swap gears is just tits...
IIRC, another advantage of the 9" is the gears themselves--specifically the "off-centered-ness" of the pinion gear in relation to the ring gear. I believe there's more overall contact between the teeth of the gears (more surface area) which makes the gears' teeth themselves stronger than the same size gears in some more like a Dana axle, where the pinion and ring gear meet on a different centerline.
Then when you combine that with aftermarket carriers and housing, you can basically end up with something *really* stout, especially compared to the other axles that are comparable in overall size.
Again, this is just what I've heard, but it makes sense. If you could really build up a 9" to withstand a lot of torque, seems that the only advantage a 14BFF would have would be it's super low-cost and availability.
I know some guys are impossibly anti-Ford to the point that they'd NEVER consider running a 9", but if you're building for performance, you'd think you'd want every advantage you could get, in terms of strength, aftermarket support, serviceability, etc...
Oh yeah, being able to yank out the 3rd member to swap gears is just tits...
Jon,
You're 100% correct.... in fact here's a link I found today while doing other research. It talks specifically about tooth engagement, length of contact area, etc.
http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/gears.html
You're pretty smart for a drummer.
You're 100% correct.... in fact here's a link I found today while doing other research. It talks specifically about tooth engagement, length of contact area, etc.
http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/gears.html
You're pretty smart for a drummer.
So the mog axles don't have an intermediate gear in the portal box like the H1s?
I'll be interested to see the design of the 4 links. Having the wheel centerline different from the axle centerline must provide some unique challenges.
I'll be interested to see the design of the 4 links. Having the wheel centerline different from the axle centerline must provide some unique challenges.
Volvo??!?!???? Bite your tongue!
No Volvo parts on this rig....good ol' fashioned German engineering. Mercedes-Benz Unimog 404 portals my friend!
It's a bit daunting to have such "nice" parts sitting in the shop, but it just forces me to bring my "A-Game" and really move this build to the next level.
Funny how the Garbage truck I drive is a Volvo, uses GM keys. I recall when they were called Volvo/White/GMC...
I'm guessing the car division and the heavy truck division are quite seperate?
Rene
Even more confusing since Volvo cars is owned by Ford, but the big Volvo trucks are a Volvo/Mack deal (not owned by Ford). 
OK, I understand your question now....
The simple answer to THAT one is ......gearing.
A stock Mog 404 axle has an overall ratio of 7.54:1 and is considered to be equivalent to about a 1.5 Ton axle in terms of strength. It would be a lot simpler to just bolt in a set and run 'em except that it would be miserable on the highway. This was the reason I originally bought that Viper 6-speed transmission with the double overdrive (.50:1 in 6th gear). It would have made the stock 404s totally highway friendly, but at the expense of a really complicated transmission/xfercase setup.....and I don't really want to shift that much. I like slushboxes.
The Ford 9" can be had with ratios down to 2.50:1 instead of the stock 3.54:1 of the stock 404 axle....that gives me an overall axle ratio in the 5.32:1 range which works beautifully with a 4L80E overdrive tranny....and I don't need a clutch pedal anymore.
A different problem with stock Mogs is that the pinion snouts on the 404s are ludicrously long and cannot be shortened. It makes them a nightmare to fit into trucks that also have engines (and oilpans). The Ford 9" is a really compact pinion setup so the packaging of the axle, especially up front is much easier to do.
You still have that Viper transmission?
Last edited by a moderator:
You still have that Viper transmission?
Um.....yeah.
http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263597
X2
2009.12.13 - UPDATE! - STARTED THE MOG-9 BUILD / MOCK-UP.....
This weekend I decided it was time to take a closer look at the Mog-9 setup and how it was going to relate to the frame height, clearances, etc. The factory Mog 404s have been sitting against the wall of my garage for a LONG time.... I dragged these with me from CA almost 4 years ago, so this day has been a long time coming.
Step 1: Take the 55mm socket (2-3/16") and remove the hut nuts using 750Lb/Ft of torque.......
Um......no. I don't own a 55mm socket and I don't have any wrench beefy enough to withstand a breaker bar that long... so I went a different way. I removed all the perimeter bolts from the back of the portal housing where it attaches to the axle tubes.
The only "catch" is that when you remove the drum/portal assemblies you get the entire inner axle shaft too... Not a big deal, and it was cool to see how massive these shafts are. I think they measure out to something like 1-5/8" with no neck-down anywhere.
The next step was to throw them into the ends of the Spidertrax housing to see what sort of clearance I'd have... That's a regular old HomeDepot bucket under the pumpkin with plenty of room to spare. At ride height, this works out to 18" of clearance under the lowest part of the pumpkin!
It turns out that I also have about 8" of uptravel clearance between the axletubes and the framerails, but I'm sure that I'll hit the oilpan way before the framerails become an issue...
To make the rest of the housing easier to lift and throw away (and because I was curious to see it) I decided to pull the 3rd member out...it's about 110Lbs, and sure feels like it too. This is a shot of the factory locker with the shift collar and locking gear plainly visible.
With all that excitement out of the way and a lot of measurements and dimensions recorded in my notebook, it was time to get the frame underneath the body again. One additional step that I needed to take was to add a sleeve to all the through-bolts where the body mount bracketry is attached. Here's a shot of the 1st Body mount position (front footwell area). I got the holes drilled for the 7/8" sleeves and did a nice countersink cut to give me a deep "V" for the welding on both sides of the frame.
Here's an "in process" shot showing the welded sleeves, and one hole after I'd finished the grinding and even cut a small de-burring chamfer on the inside of the hole.
I did the 1st Body mount position on both rails, shot them with a touch-up of Ryoken Green, and then cranked the brackets on nice and tight with all new GR-8 hardware. In this shot, I'm basically dropping plumb lines from the exact hole centers of the bodymount holes to establish the frame position underneath. Since there are no crossmembers (yet) I need to get very accurate dimensions so that I can make sure that the new ones get the frame perfectly square and plumb to the original body mount holes of the body.
That's about it for this weekend. It was a lot of heavy lifting and a lot of mess to clean up at the end, but I feel like some really good progress happened... now it's time to go watch the season finale of Dexter!
This weekend I decided it was time to take a closer look at the Mog-9 setup and how it was going to relate to the frame height, clearances, etc. The factory Mog 404s have been sitting against the wall of my garage for a LONG time.... I dragged these with me from CA almost 4 years ago, so this day has been a long time coming.
Step 1: Take the 55mm socket (2-3/16") and remove the hut nuts using 750Lb/Ft of torque.......
Um......no. I don't own a 55mm socket and I don't have any wrench beefy enough to withstand a breaker bar that long... so I went a different way. I removed all the perimeter bolts from the back of the portal housing where it attaches to the axle tubes.
The only "catch" is that when you remove the drum/portal assemblies you get the entire inner axle shaft too...
Not a big deal, and it was cool to see how massive these shafts are. I think they measure out to something like 1-5/8" with no neck-down anywhere.
The next step was to throw them into the ends of the Spidertrax housing to see what sort of clearance I'd have... That's a regular old HomeDepot bucket under the pumpkin with plenty of room to spare. At ride height, this works out to 18" of clearance under the lowest part of the pumpkin!
It turns out that I also have about 8" of uptravel clearance between the axletubes and the framerails, but I'm sure that I'll hit the oilpan way before the framerails become an issue...
To make the rest of the housing easier to lift and throw away (and because I was curious to see it) I decided to pull the 3rd member out...it's about 110Lbs, and sure feels like it too. This is a shot of the factory locker with the shift collar and locking gear plainly visible.
With all that excitement out of the way and a lot of measurements and dimensions recorded in my notebook, it was time to get the frame underneath the body again. One additional step that I needed to take was to add a sleeve to all the through-bolts where the body mount bracketry is attached. Here's a shot of the 1st Body mount position (front footwell area). I got the holes drilled for the 7/8" sleeves and did a nice countersink cut to give me a deep "V" for the welding on both sides of the frame.
Here's an "in process" shot showing the welded sleeves, and one hole after I'd finished the grinding and even cut a small de-burring chamfer on the inside of the hole.
I did the 1st Body mount position on both rails, shot them with a touch-up of Ryoken Green, and then cranked the brackets on nice and tight with all new GR-8 hardware. In this shot, I'm basically dropping plumb lines from the exact hole centers of the bodymount holes to establish the frame position underneath. Since there are no crossmembers (yet) I need to get very accurate dimensions so that I can make sure that the new ones get the frame perfectly square and plumb to the original body mount holes of the body.
That's about it for this weekend. It was a lot of heavy lifting and a lot of mess to clean up at the end, but I feel like some really good progress happened... now it's time to go watch the season finale of Dexter!
outstanding..... looks like a very productive weekend!
i layed on the couch in the fetal position....
any ideas on coating the inside of the boxes at the end, other than the green?
i layed on the couch in the fetal position....
any ideas on coating the inside of the boxes at the end, other than the green?
outstanding..... looks like a very productive weekend!
i layed on the couch in the fetal position....
any ideas on coating the inside of the boxes at the end, other than the green?
I'd love to find a place that could do a galvanize dipping process on something that large... don't even know if such a thing is possible??
eh, I'd probably just turn a gun way up, turn the fan all the way in, and just blast some good paint in from the ends before I capped the ends... thats all I did on my sliders... be nice if you could tip it, and flip it over while doing it..
bp71k5
3/4 ton status
you mean on the inside or outside? I guess the diy way would be to weld a threaded fitting on the end and then pour some cold galvanizing stuff in there and slosh it around, then drain out the excess and thread a plug into the fitting?
