FrostBite
1/2 ton status
My cousin is doing a body swap on his 88-98 so I took the opportunity to snag a few pictures of the steering box.
CK5
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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
Scotty, not sure I understand you. If the box is set up for a front-swing pitman arm, swapping to a rear-swing arm (with no other changes) will make is steer the opposite way.
I'm imagining a really long double-ended pitman arm (one front swing, one rear swing) mounted to the steering box. If I turn left the front arm moves to the left, but the rear swing arm goes the exact opposite way.... unless there is some way to re-work the box internally I'm not sure how to resolve that.
-G
Greg, you have to keep in mind that you're going crossover steering which could be different than what the Scout box had which will now make the steering box move the wheels opposite of what the Scout steering did. I'll call you tomorrow if you don't understand or someone else hasn't already explained it for you.
Big progress today....!!
I'll post up a detailed update later on (with lots of photos) but for now here's a shot of the steering box clearance at full-lock.
Obviously, I don't have steering box clearance issues to worry about.
-G
I'll post up a detailed update later on (with lots of photos) but for now here's a shot of the steering box clearance at full-lock.
Obviously, I don't have steering box clearance issues to worry about.
-G
2013.03.17 - UPDATE! - HERO DAY!...
Lots of good progress today.
I started the day with the task of assembling the DS front portal. That would allow me to check clearances around the steering box with the wheel and tire mounted.
You all know the drill by now....coffee, music and a clean workbench? Check. Time to begin....
When I prepped the rear portals I built a small bearing puller out of some steel scrap and a few bolts. The lower bearing is a blind hole and tough to remove without a lot of damage. It's a little ghetto, but it actually works.
Spent some quality time pressing in bearings and gears and it was time to lift this monster (lift with your knees, not your back!) and bolt it up to the axle....
Once the wheel/tire combo was mounted, I cranked the wheel hard-right to see how close I'd end up to the steering box....
Looked like plenty of clearance for a traditional GM steering box. Problem solved...
I cranked the wheel hard left and checked the clearance at the firewall/ rear frame area...
Looks pretty good as well.
That put me at a crossroads. I really wanted to get started on the steering details, but it was clear that things would probably be a lot easier if I just spent a little extra time and built the passenger side portal completely as well.... I decided to invest 90 more minutes on portal assembly so that I'd have both sides done and would be able to put both wheels/tires on, and avoid messing around with jackstands for good.
Cranked the wheels again just to see how the tires would look against the steering stops on both sides...
Pretty cool.
So here's where things got a little weird. Now that I had the front axle sitting on the tires I thought it would be a good time to reinstall the front fenders just to see how the clearance was going to be with the front 3-link. I'd been targeting a 107" wheelbase (though it was pushing 107.5" lately). But it looks like I got a bit too greedy with my attempt to stretch the wheelbase. You can see in them photo that the fender hits the tire badly and can't even be bolted down at the lower fender mount location.... (notice the taper in the door-to-fender gap!)
Turns out, the "correct" wheelbase for this project is going to be 106". That is still 2" longer than stock (1st Gens are only 104"). I moved the link mounts back and was able to get the fender bolted into place correctly (just barely!). Clearly it will need some additional effort, but aesthically the end result will be good.
-G
Lots of good progress today.
I started the day with the task of assembling the DS front portal. That would allow me to check clearances around the steering box with the wheel and tire mounted.
You all know the drill by now....coffee, music and a clean workbench? Check. Time to begin....
When I prepped the rear portals I built a small bearing puller out of some steel scrap and a few bolts. The lower bearing is a blind hole and tough to remove without a lot of damage. It's a little ghetto, but it actually works.
Spent some quality time pressing in bearings and gears and it was time to lift this monster (lift with your knees, not your back!) and bolt it up to the axle....
Once the wheel/tire combo was mounted, I cranked the wheel hard-right to see how close I'd end up to the steering box....
Looked like plenty of clearance for a traditional GM steering box. Problem solved...
I cranked the wheel hard left and checked the clearance at the firewall/ rear frame area...
Looks pretty good as well.
That put me at a crossroads. I really wanted to get started on the steering details, but it was clear that things would probably be a lot easier if I just spent a little extra time and built the passenger side portal completely as well.... I decided to invest 90 more minutes on portal assembly so that I'd have both sides done and would be able to put both wheels/tires on, and avoid messing around with jackstands for good.
Cranked the wheels again just to see how the tires would look against the steering stops on both sides...
Pretty cool.
So here's where things got a little weird. Now that I had the front axle sitting on the tires I thought it would be a good time to reinstall the front fenders just to see how the clearance was going to be with the front 3-link. I'd been targeting a 107" wheelbase (though it was pushing 107.5" lately). But it looks like I got a bit too greedy with my attempt to stretch the wheelbase. You can see in them photo that the fender hits the tire badly and can't even be bolted down at the lower fender mount location.... (notice the taper in the door-to-fender gap!)
Turns out, the "correct" wheelbase for this project is going to be 106". That is still 2" longer than stock (1st Gens are only 104"). I moved the link mounts back and was able to get the fender bolted into place correctly (just barely!). Clearly it will need some additional effort, but aesthically the end result will be good.
-G
It will be interesting to see how it goes when I start cycling that axle...
Unlike the old leafspring setup, the axle will stay in almost perfect vertical alignment as it stuffs. I've got a lot of clearance at the rear edge of that fender, but I probably won't need that much with the 3-link setup.
Time will tell.
-G
Unlike the old leafspring setup, the axle will stay in almost perfect vertical alignment as it stuffs. I've got a lot of clearance at the rear edge of that fender, but I probably won't need that much with the 3-link setup.
Time will tell.
-G
Scott scouts were cross over steering factory so with the pitman arm pointed forward they swing the right way.
Greg I may have missed this somewhere but is the radiator going to clear going to a more conventional steering box? That was the only real reason I suggested the Scout box. It would be much better to have the short sector shaft of a conventional 800 or 700 series box.
Wheels and tires on. Awesome. Kind of makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside huh?
Looks like it needs a 3 inch fender and hood stretch.
Just cut the whole wheel arch out and move it forward, fill in the blank spots and bam.
That would actually look super cool I think. Whats another labor intensive mod anyway
With the link suspension and really good placement of the wheel arch you might be able to get away without a modified opening at all.
Of course it won't be in the stock location and the fender will be a one of a kind. So you should probably do that, it will fit with the rest of the truck
That would actually look super cool I think. Whats another labor intensive mod anyway
With the link suspension and really good placement of the wheel arch you might be able to get away without a modified opening at all.
Of course it won't be in the stock location and the fender will be a one of a kind. So you should probably do that, it will fit with the rest of the truck
CUCV2
5/4 ton fun
Is cutting the bottom ~6" fang off the front of the fender an option? It may be just a partial solution to the issue. Looks like fender modifications in that opening will need to happen with any axle placement,
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Greg I may have missed this somewhere but is the radiator going to clear going to a more conventional steering box? That was the only real reason I suggested the Scout box. It would be much better to have the short sector shaft of a conventional 800 or 700 series box.
Wheels and tires on. Awesome. Kind of makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside huh?
It was definitely a great shot of motivation to see the trust with all 4 wheels mounted. I was dreading the assembly of those last two portals (lots of tedious fitting and polishing to get the parts to fit correctly) so I'm glad that's off my to-do list.
The radiator goes just inside of that engine cage and sits on top of the framerails. I am not understanding the concern about clearance though.... The box basically sits parallel to the framerail, right? So as long as the the box doesn't end up taller than the framerail it seems like there wouldn't be an issue?
As far as fender clearance, I think I'll just build some small 2" spacer plates for now to shift the fender forward (using the stock mounting holes) just to see how that would help fender to tire clearance. If it works well, I'll probably just cut and slide the fender opening forward and call it good.
-G
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Nice work, Greg. You have been pushing through a ton of stuff just to get to that one "Hero Day". Makes pushing through all of those grinder days well worth it.
Everything is looking really good. Those portals on the axle with the tires, brings a whole different awesome look to the rig.
Can't wait to see what you come up with on the fang. Mainly, so I can copy it, without using too many brain cells on my end.
Everything is looking really good. Those portals on the axle with the tires, brings a whole different awesome look to the rig.
Can't wait to see what you come up with on the fang. Mainly, so I can copy it, without using too many brain cells on my end.
4 wheels and tires is some major progress! Just think when you can actually set it on its own 4 wheels!
Nice work, Greg. You have been pushing through a ton of stuff just to get to that one "Hero Day". Makes pushing through all of those grinder days well worth it.
Everything is looking really good. Those portals on the axle with the tires, brings a whole different awesome look to the rig.
Can't wait to see what you come up with on the fang. Mainly, so I can copy it, without using too many brain cells on my end.
Thanks Mike!
We can't all be out meeting CK5 superheros like you... so I made the best of my weekend.
I agree there is something magical and inspirational about seeing the truck on all fours again....makes it feel more "real" somehow. Hard to describe, but it definitely gets me fired up and motivated. I think having the fenders hanging on the truck (at least temporarily) make a big difference too.I'd love to be able to keep the factory "fang" somehow, if for no other reason than the fact that EVERYONE chops them off almost immediately when they start messing around with 1st Gens and bigger tires (myself included, at least the first time around). I'll bet there's a way to use the gentler curve from the back side of the front fender (DS patch used on PS, for example) to remove some of that "undercut" that you get with the fang and original fender shape. Then sort of rotate the entire fang sheetmetal sort of counterclockwise so that it can still be used in the final part, but gets rid of the undercut enough so that the tire will clear. It's hard to describe, but I've got the image in my head. Just need to spend some time with a cutoff wheel and I'll be able to show you what I mean.
Indeed! I'm glad I spent the extra time building out both portals even though I knew it was going to cost me some precious time and prevent me from getting any further on the steering arm/ steering box solution. What is really weird about the portals is the way the wheel/tire rotates when they are turned left or right. Being so far away from the steering axis gives them a really strange look when they are turning......hard to describe but I think you can get a sense of it from some of the photos I posted last night.
I'm definitely excited about getting back out into the shop tonight, even though it's only going to be for a few hours!
-G
Just got off the phone with HOWE....
I ended up on the phone with the owner of the company (Jeff), and he talked me through a bunch of stuff personally.... how cool is that?
Ultimately, he suggested that I try to locate a 800-series (800 Gear) Saginaw box from a 90's era (or newer) Suburban. These are the inside-the-frame style boxes which should work well for my current thought process for the steering setup. They also have a rear-facing pitman arm (points toward the back of the truck)..... and the "800-series" designation refers to the size of the internal piston, which in this case is the large style. Some of the Saginaw boxes (700-series) use a smaller piston and will not be well-matched to a heavy full-size truck application. Good to know...
FYI the industry terms to simplify the discussion are:
Standard Rotation = Rear facing pitman arm
Reverse Rotation = Front facing pitman arm
As it turns out, it doesn't matter all that much, since Jeff said he can rebuild the box and change it from Standard to Reverse steer (or vice versa) depending on what is desired.
So.....does anyone know how to cross-reference that 800-Series Suburban steering box to an actual part number (or a more specific range of years) so that I can start looking on Craigslist or eBay for a greasy mockup box to work with???
-G
I ended up on the phone with the owner of the company (Jeff), and he talked me through a bunch of stuff personally.... how cool is that?
Ultimately, he suggested that I try to locate a 800-series (800 Gear) Saginaw box from a 90's era (or newer) Suburban. These are the inside-the-frame style boxes which should work well for my current thought process for the steering setup. They also have a rear-facing pitman arm (points toward the back of the truck)..... and the "800-series" designation refers to the size of the internal piston, which in this case is the large style. Some of the Saginaw boxes (700-series) use a smaller piston and will not be well-matched to a heavy full-size truck application. Good to know...
FYI the industry terms to simplify the discussion are:
Standard Rotation = Rear facing pitman arm
Reverse Rotation = Front facing pitman arm
As it turns out, it doesn't matter all that much, since Jeff said he can rebuild the box and change it from Standard to Reverse steer (or vice versa) depending on what is desired.
So.....does anyone know how to cross-reference that 800-Series Suburban steering box to an actual part number (or a more specific range of years) so that I can start looking on Craigslist or eBay for a greasy mockup box to work with???
-G
Jeff spent an hour with me when I was setting up my full hydro system. Stand up people.
The radiator goes just inside of that engine cage and sits on top of the framerails. I am not understanding the concern about clearance though.... The box basically sits parallel to the framerail, right? So as long as the the box doesn't end up taller than the framerail it seems like there wouldn't be an issue?
-G
Just trying to bring things to the fore front, I have had problems moving steering boxes and running into radiator clearance and its a huge pain in the butt when you don't realize it. As no one else had talked about it and given my history it was a concern, considering the amount of work I have done in the past I wanted to help avoid a possible problem
For instance ( I realize your frame rail is totally different but to illustrate a point)
My steering box relocation
You can see how much taller the box is then the frame.
You should be able to mount the box lower than I did I needed to raise it because stuff was hitting. When mocking up even just moving it forward still made it hit the radiator.
Just consider everything. If you think it might be a little too close without the stuff in there take the time to reassemble and make sure it all clears.
Greg, when I need specific parts like that sometimes i just go to the parts store and buy a reman unit of what I need. Sometimes its worth it to eat the core charge, or take it back later with the old part in the box. It may not be exactly the same but they rebuild it and figure that out anyway. I even had one parts store guy tell me, "as long as there is the same part in the box I don't really care what it came out of". In other words, as long as it's a water pump or power steering box or whatever, and not a starter or something else instead, it doesn't matter to him.
