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'84 K10 The Animal- Now on Forty Two's

Adventure truck
Overview Gallery Discussion
I spent some time cleaning all the parts really well and stripping the right stuff from the surfaces. Through the cleaning process I inspected all the parts trying to find some sort of wear indicator giving me a clue about the possible failure point. Besides the missing washer/shim on the planetary gear, I found nothing else that might cause this. I also couldn't theorize how the missing washer/shim on the planetary gear would cause the issue I'm having.
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Kris and I spoke on a couple different occasions in depth about a variety of other potential causes including thrust washer flatness, shift collar wear, shift fork bent, fork wear pads, correct input bearing (two sizes available) shift arm detent wear or arm failure. All these items came back with a clean inspection after measuring and discussing further with Kris. I also verified that I have a 94 and older planetary therefore I use the big bearing with a .930" width with blunt (square cut) gears in the planetary. The shitty part about that is the planetary is the lack of availability (new) like the 95 and up, therefore I need to source a used planetary to replace the failed unit. Eventually the output bearing retainer came up in conversation since that keeps the bearing pressed into the case. Here's a picture of mine and as you can see, it's not pressed in all the way. I should also clarify that it's not really a press fit, this bearing can be tapped in with a rubber mallet.
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next I verified the snap ring thickness 0.064" and the depth of the recess for the snap ring in the retainer 0.080" leaving a gap of 0.016" between the two. Add a layer of right stuff rtv and we're easily at 0.030" of clearance therefore allowing the bearing to push out by that amount. I also had the stock retainer from the NP241 which can also be used on this case and it was within a couple thousands of the NWF retainer.

here's the retainer upside down with the snap ring laying inside of it for a height comparison.
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Kris recommended that I use a anaerobic sealer (PTX-51031) along with a activator (PTX-24163) in effort to provide a thinner sealing solution for this retainer against the case. Apparently this is what they use at their shop when sealing these retainers for clients. The right stuff is still preferred for sealing the case halves.

I also found a 94 and older planetary on ebay so I bought that to replace the failed unit in this case.

Unfortunately I'm not totally convinced I found the problem however I'm going to reassemble the case and see how it does.
 
skunked said:
I spent some time cleaning all the parts really well and stripping the right stuff from the surfaces. Through the cleaning process I inspected all the parts trying to find some sort of wear indicator giving me a clue about the possible failure point. Besides the missing washer/shim on the planetary gear, I found nothing else that might cause this. I also couldn't theorize how the missing washer/shim on the planetary gear would cause the issue I'm having.
full


Kris and I spoke on a couple different occasions in depth about a variety of other potential causes including thrust washer flatness, shift collar wear, shift fork bent, fork wear pads, correct input bearing (two sizes available) shift arm detent wear or arm failure. All these items came back with a clean inspection after measuring and discussing further with Kris. I also verified that I have a 94 and older planetary therefore I use the big bearing with a .930" width with blunt (square cut) gears in the planetary. The shitty part about that is the planetary is the lack of availability (new) like the 95 and up, therefore I need to source a used planetary to replace the failed unit. Eventually the output bearing retainer came up in conversation since that keeps the bearing pressed into the case. Here's a picture of mine and as you can see, it's not pressed in all the way. I should also clarify that it's not really a press fit, this bearing can be tapped in with a rubber mallet.
full


next I verified the snap ring thickness 0.064" and the depth of the recess for the snap ring in the retainer 0.080" leaving a gap of 0.016" between the two. Add a layer of right stuff rtv and we're easily at 0.030" of clearance therefore allowing the bearing to push out by that amount. I also had the stock retainer from the NP241 which can also be used on this case and it was within a couple thousands of the NWF retainer.

here's the retainer upside down with the snap ring laying inside of it for a height comparison.
full


Kris recommended that I use a anaerobic sealer (PTX-51031) along with a activator (PTX-24163) in effort to provide a thinner sealing solution for this retainer against the case. Apparently this is what they use at their shop when sealing these retainers for clients. The right stuff is still preferred for sealing the case halves.

I also found a 94 and older planetary on ebay so I bought that to replace the failed unit in this case.

Unfortunately I'm not totally convinced I found the problem however I'm going to reassemble the case and see how it does.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure that is your problem, without the washer that gear will walk back and forth with acceleration deceleration and that can move the gears causing it to come out of gear.
This is a thrust washer as I am sure you know and I believe it is enough movement to be outside of the tolerance.
Did you ask that?
 
imiceman44 said:
I am pretty sure that is your problem, without the washer that gear will walk back and forth with acceleration deceleration and that can move the gears causing it to come out of gear.
This is a thrust washer as I am sure you know and I believe it is enough movement to be outside of the tolerance.
Did you ask that?
Click to expand...

yes I mentioned that to him but he didn’t think it would cause that symptom either. If it was popping out of low maybe....I hope we’re both wrong and that fixes it but I doubt it.
 
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I forgot to mention that NWF recommended that I use a retaining compound for the input bearing in effort to keep it seated better. I should have all the parts and supplies to reassemble the case by mid next week.
Loctite 62040.jpg
 
skunked said:
I forgot to mention that NWF recommended that I use a retaining compound for the input bearing in effort to keep it seated better. I should have all the parts and supplies to reassemble the case by mid next week.
View attachment 373371
Click to expand...

This is above my paygrade but are you sure this is a good idea? I believe that green Loctite is intended to be permanent (different from a thread locker). If you are going to use it do you think you should use a new bearing since it may be exceptionally hard to remove?
 
With the NWF case sorted (somewhat) it's time to move onto the NP205 issues which consist of the front output popping out of low and the leaks (rear output & maybe the front output cover. I measured the output end play at 0.030 rear & 0.012 for the front at the flange with the flanges torqued.

I spoke with ORD about the front output issue yesterday and he described a few possibilities. The first being the difference between the factory front 32 spline output vs the aftermarket which can cause some problems on certain cases. I've heard this from multiple people previously and I know one person that swapped the aftermarket output for a the ford and the problem went away. He also had a chance to compare them side by side and was able to confirm the difference in the shafts.

ORD also recommended I take a close look at the low gear for bearing slop and inspect the shift collar and the shift arm for any unusual wear. He also warned me that some cases simply are not machined as precisely as we might expect therefore causing some of the issues with certain parts that another case may not have.

Based on this information I went ahead and ordered a full rebuild kit from ORD and I'll tear the case down for inspection. ORD sells the shift collars and the forks (unlikely) if they're needed.
 
nvrenuf said:
This is above my paygrade but are you sure this is a good idea? I believe that green Loctite is intended to be permanent (different from a thread locker). If you are going to use it do you think you should use a new bearing since it may be exceptionally hard to remove?
Click to expand...

The bearing is pretty damn new and he said it can be removed later with a press. Apparently they use the wurth version when assembling their cases in house.
 
FWIW my case is a from a first gen Cummins dodge. Factory 32 spline
 
skunked said:
With the NWF case sorted (somewhat) it's time to move onto the NP205 issues which consist of the front output popping out of low and the leaks (rear output & maybe the front output cover. I measured the output end play at 0.030 rear & 0.012 for the front at the flange with the flanges torqued.

I spoke with ORD about the front output issue yesterday and he described a few possibilities. The first being the difference between the factory front 32 spline output vs the aftermarket which can cause some problems on certain cases. I've heard this from multiple people previously and I know one person that swapped the aftermarket output for a the ford and the problem went away. He also had a chance to compare them side by side and was able to confirm the difference in the shafts.

ORD also recommended I take a close look at the low gear for bearing slop and inspect the shift collar and the shift arm for any unusual wear. He also warned me that some cases simply are not machined as precisely as we might expect therefore causing some of the issues with certain parts that another case may not have.

Based on this information I went ahead and ordered a full rebuild kit from ORD and I'll tear the case down for inspection. ORD sells the shift collars and the forks (unlikely) if they're needed.
Click to expand...
I’m going with the aftermarket shaft not being machined correctly. My setup is all brand new and built tight and right. It does the same thing as everyone else. Pops out under decel forces. But usually only on high traction situations like slickrock. I have been shifting the front to neutral on downhills to avoid it.
 
Fastereddie said:
I’m going with the aftermarket shaft not being machined correctly. My setup is all brand new and built tight and right. It does the same thing as everyone else. Pops out under decel forces. But usually only on high traction situations like slickrock. I have been shifting the front to neutral on downhills to avoid it.
Click to expand...

I'm prepared for that result if it plays out that way.

Loose rock on a steep downhill in the most common scenario. The first time it happened was in moab on the flat iron mesa trail on a steep & long downhill section of loose rock toward the beginning of the trail. When the front popped into neutral the truck started rolling faster as it drug the rear tires and the truck pitched sideways. By luck I grabbed the front shifter first and pulled it back into low and regained control before it popped out again and I held it until I reached the bottom. Scared the shit out of me and my codawg needed new shorts after that. It's also happened on the Rubicon last summer when I was on the granite, turning with the front locker engaged. I normally pull it out of gear in that scenario but I didn't that time....
 
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