doubler vs aftermarket box....UPDATE 3/5/11

[wasted wages]

Well.......here we go....

I Decided on the Doubler....

Chris and the gang at ORD hooked me up... Thanks Guys !!!

400 / 208 Adapter plate / Range box / doubler / 205 input shaft /205 twin stick shift rail kit / triple sticks /gasket set....

Main reasons...cheap reliable strong parts....pretty much available anywhere.

The aftermarket boxes appealed to me for simplicity of installation, but I have a fear that if there is a problem with the box,
and the manufacture is going out of business / closed / revising the design, you pretty much stuck with what you have...and the average Joe has no clout when it comes to getting things repaired / replaced under warranty.

Just the pirate link with the problems in the Stak boxes was enough to scare me off of that idea..http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764135&highlight=stak

In the long run...it will be more work, but I feel confident that this was the right choice overall....Those nice machined aluminum boxes sure look sexy...but what good are they if they won't stay engaged....

I'll try to update this post as I do the install.....not a build thread..
just a time line to kinda keep up with the progress and issues that I come up against....

First thing....pull the T-400/205....The high dollar TCI torque converter (2200 RPM stall w/ anti ballooning plate) I have in the buggy has a tiny weld leak....and slings fluid all over the place...might as well pull the whole thing and do it right....

which brings up another question.....with the lower gearing...is a high stall converter really needed ?

I put it in a long time ago when the engine was supercharged and played in the mud.....I would think it would do better now with a stock stall converter..

 

[ssyork]

Well.......here we go....

I Decided on the Doubler....

Chris and the gang at ORD hooked me up... Thanks Guys !!!

Can't help but like those guys!

 

[6.2Blazer]

Just a few comments on the Atlas....has nobody paid attention to Top Truck Challenge? Definitely not light weight rigs when running built big blocks, Rockwells, and 54" tires and the Atlas is very common in these and yet to see or hear anybody fail one in the competition. Nothing against the doubler or other options but I find it kinda' funny saying the Atlas is not proven and won't hold up.....that was the word on the internet when they first came out 10 years ago (or whenever it was).

I'm also curious about the comment that "shifting the transmission isn't nearly as effective as shifting the transfer case". Not disputing the statement and it did come from an actual owner of an Atlas 4-speed, but I just don't see it on paper.

2.72 low range x 2.48 (1st gear in TH400) = 6.7
2.72 low range x 1.5 (2nd gear in TH400) = 4.1
2.0 low range x 2.48 (1st gear in TH400) = 5.0

You can even use 3rd gear in the trans with 2.72. I have a NP241 and auto and commonly use 2nd gear in the trans for easy sections of trail, and occassionally use 3rd and that is moving pretty fast, and is actually faster than 1st gear high range with 700r4 (and very close to 1st gear/high range with 350 or 400 trans). Guess my point is I just can't see why you would need the 2.0 low range.

But hey, if somebody gives me a 4-speed Atlas I wouldn't have any problem putting it in my rig!

 

[RGV72BLAZER]

Worst case, if 3:1 wasn't low enough, you could build a doubler with the Lomax. 6:1 would be ridiculously low

If I can ever finish my junk, I'd be glad to report how ridiculously low it is

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Just a few comments on the Atlas....has nobody paid attention to Top Truck Challenge? Definitely not light weight rigs when running built big blocks, Rockwells, and 54" tires and the Atlas is very common in these and yet to see or hear anybody fail one in the competition. Nothing against the doubler or other options but I find it kinda' funny saying the Atlas is not proven and won't hold up.....that was the word on the internet when they first came out 10 years ago (or whenever it was).

A magazine competition is hardly real world proof either

We are a dealer for Advance Adapters and we sell Atlas', so again, not talking them down at all. They are a great product for their niche.

The bottom line is an Atlas is not as strong as a 205, at least with comparable input gears. Do they hold up in a fullsize application? We know many that do, and a handful that haven't. We usually push people towards the doubler for bigger trucks.

 

[6.2Blazer]

A magazine competition is hardly real world proof either

We are a dealer for Advance Adapters and we sell Atlas', so again, not talking them down at all. They are a great product for their niche.

The bottom line is an Atlas is not as strong as a 205, at least with comparable input gears. Do they hold up in a fullsize application? We know many that do, and a handful that haven't. We usually push people towards the doubler for bigger trucks.

TTC is just one example, but is one of the most extreme thrashfests I've ever seen. There are all types of "East Coast" style rigs running them on heavier rigs with big horsepower, big tires, and full throttle driving. Again, not disputing your comments but rather just adding my own.

 

[wasted wages]

Time line update.....just received confirmation of parts shipment from ORD....

Transmission and T/case are coming out this weekend....

 

[wasted wages]

PROGRESS !!!!

 

[wasted wages]

1/15/11......finished the rebuild on the 205 today....put the two cases together temporally to fit the triple stick shifters....

couple of observations and questions......

#1.. The triple sticks came with a spacer (two small tubes welded to a flat bar.) Is it needed ? I bolted the shifters in place with out it and everything seems to line up fine....

#2..The 205 is now clocked flat,,, what do I need to do about the oil fill plug ?
won't the case hold less oil due to the case laying flat .....

#3.. The front 1410 output yoke is about a 3/8" from striking the bracket that bolts to the shift rail.....kinda concerned about that....

#4 the headers on the passenger side may be an issue with the driveshaft hitting the exhaust due to the flat clocking of the 205...I guess once I have the trans and doubler installed I will know more....Has anyone had a problem with this ??


thanks for any input !!!

 

[sweetk30]

did you read threw my doubler build with all the pics ?

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253000

 

[sweetk30]

o.k. here ya go here is the tripple stick all set up.

pic 1 and 3 of the spacer tube.

fyi i redid the hardware somewhat from them. i got extra reg nuts for the mockup. then checked all the clearences in the 3 shifters diffrent patterns. took and cut the extra threads off the bolts. and left just the right amount so when i was done the nylock nuts griped. also used longer smoth shanke bolts to get solid shanke in the holes and not threads. some required a spacer to get everything just right. some bolts and nuts go 1 way and other go another way.

i prob got 2-3 hrs in all the setup alone of the linkage of these parts. but it paid off in the end. up in the truck everythink is dead perfect movement no binding or flopping. and i even matched the detent feel of the 203 range box to the 205 levers. i used a 5/16 nut with the flats ground down to solid smoth so it was just the right size to fit up in the 203 spring detent hole and tighten up the spring for more pressure as the 203 shifted way to easy for my liking. mod write up post #10 in write up.

next post for few 203 detent spring pics of the modification.

the best thing i can say is test and tune this full setup out on the bench . you will not want to try it up in the truck.

 

[wasted wages]

so basically all the tube/ flat bar bracket does is move the shifters forward by about 1 inch.... Is that so they line up with the hole in the floor pan ??


Oh,,,and see in picture 5 how close the round front drive flange is to the shift rail ?
Picture that with a 1 ton 1410 yoke on it.....mine is like 3/8" away from the shift rail..

 

[sweetk30]

detent spring stiffiner pics for the 203

few more of the spacer for the shifter. and mine is installed a tiny bit diffrent thanks to the redrill of the 203 mix up.

 

[sweetk30]

here is my floor pan hole at this point.

4l80-e / 241 adaptor / 203 range box / ord / 205.

the th400 you got with stock 208 adaptor will get you 1.5 almost 2.5" up to the front of the dash possibly dependent on the way you setup the shifter per the directions.

pic #1 = stock bench seat slides with 1x1 3/16 tube welded together for bucket seat mounting. and its all the way back.

pic #2 = shifters up threw the stock hole. full right side of hole and some of the floor to the big slope on the side down to the floor opened up.

pic #3 = general pic of the shifters

pic #4 = if i recall with out checking my notes ( go check my write up its prob in there ) the levers are all the way back and the seat mount is all the way back.

 

[wasted wages]

Did a little trick on the two holes on top of the 205 case where the drive pins are driven into the shift forks..

( you know... the ones that had the tiny freeze plugs in them )

1/8" pipe tap fits the holes perfect.....ran the tap into them...two 1/8 pipe plugs,,,,,, a little sealant.....done !

 

[sweetk30]

seen that on a lot of them. he rubber plug ones get 1/4 plugs if i recall if you want to tap them.

i reused and super sealed them.

 

[wasted wages]

Thanks for the tip on the 203.....the detent does feel a little anemic...

are you running headers ???

any clearance issues with the exhaust ??

 

[sweetk30]

truck on major hold.

headers yes. long tube no. shortys yes.

clearence problems ? not there yet.

and your welcome on the info.

all i can say again is best time i put in to the setup was full assemble and test on the bench. work out problems there not in truck.

and if you ask me i bet the 203 range box would have poped out of range under the light detent pressure.

 

[1BEATK5]

i can testify to the 203 popping out of gear. mine has done it twice when i have hit somthing hard (stump in the snow while i was hot doggin to get up a steep hill) i read sweetk30's doubler build and just added the nut. i havent tried it out on the trail yet, but it feels much better.

long tube headers will work with it, but its close. my exhaust looks like the underneath of a sink to keep my 3" shaft off the header. i ended up cutting the collector flange off to make it short enough. shorty headers or some that exit higher would be better. i just have some cheapy fllowtech ones. thats why i didnt mind cutting them.

i also had to raise the floor under the passenger's seat area due to the 205 hitting the floor because of the 2" up rotation. it was a small spot, but it helped get everything flat.

when i made the floor for the shifters, i used the plate that it came with to make a template on my new floor hump. then i welded the bolts to the bottom to make studs for the shifter boots and trim rings to slide down on. makes installing thema bunch easier.

my combo is a bit shorter due to my t350. so you should have a little more room. also i had to widen the whole floor because the bolt that holds the shifters together was hitting the floor 2" to the right of the tunnel. i dont think its as bad on a truck, but in a k5 the trans tunnel is smaller.
pic hor on

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Oh,,,and see in picture 5 how close the round front drive flange is to the shift rail ?
Picture that with a 1 ton 1410 yoke on it.....mine is like 3/8" away from the shift rail..

How much would you anticipate your setup will move? 3/8" sounds like plenty of clearance.

I know of some good headers for SBC's for high clearance but I don't for BBC's, I can check and get back to you monday.