magik235
Still Alive
In your first chart shown again below your temperature is at 225. There has been much discussion related to temperature in your thread. What thermostat are you running?
CK5
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Got my usb aldl cable. What now? *EDIT-NEW heated o2 data is up!!!.*
- Thread starter y5mgisi
- Start date
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Thats the "raw" reading. The converted reading is 44.3*F. I am running a 180* thermostat appearntly judging by my data log.
magik235
Still Alive
That would explain the 1100 rpm. I should have looked more carefully at the column. Some people claim to have problems running a 180 thermostat while others say it is OK. I run a 195 in my 1987 Jimmy.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
I have heard that too. Some say its good and gives better performance but others say the opposite. Either way that dosnt explain why it runs bad before it even reaches that temp.
Check your oxygen sensor. It is not crossing hatching at all, just showing 0V at all times (range is 0 - 1V, 0V indicating a great deal of oxygen, 1V indicating no oxygen) which is causing the engine to think that the engine is very, VERY lean, and causing it to pour as much fuel on as it capable of to try and compensate.
The oxygen sensor is a zirconium oxide type, basically it works by allowing oxygen ions to cross a permeable membrane. When the oxygen on one side of the membrane is the same as the concentration on the other side, there is no push for the ions to pass through the membrane to equalize the concentrations on either side. This pressure is indicated by voltage. Since your sensor is showing 0V, there are little to no ions passing through the sensor. When there is a big difference in concentration, the ions rush through generating a voltage.
O2 sensors of this type must be kept very hot to work, as the heat opens the pores on the membrane to allow the oxygen ions to pass through. They are also easily poisoned by substances such as silicone, which plug them right up (hense sensor safe RTVs).
Cheap aftermarket O2 sensors often don't work right out of the box, I only use AC-Delco sensors when I replace them.
Other than that, I see that your IAC is infact working fairly closely at about 50 counts at idle. Ideal is around 25, but that is close enough as is, and indicates to me that you do not have a vaccum leak on your hands. Your MAP sensor readings are low, but we already know that they should be due to how the engine is running.
At this point I would replace your oxygen sensor and install a 195F thermostat. Fuel injected engines like to run hot, you won't see any gain in performance by running a cooler one. The concept there was to try and keep the air charge cooler, but with a controlled fuel mixture based on oxygen in the exhaust will do a much better job. A hotter engine is a more efficient engine.
The oxygen sensor is a zirconium oxide type, basically it works by allowing oxygen ions to cross a permeable membrane. When the oxygen on one side of the membrane is the same as the concentration on the other side, there is no push for the ions to pass through the membrane to equalize the concentrations on either side. This pressure is indicated by voltage. Since your sensor is showing 0V, there are little to no ions passing through the sensor. When there is a big difference in concentration, the ions rush through generating a voltage.
O2 sensors of this type must be kept very hot to work, as the heat opens the pores on the membrane to allow the oxygen ions to pass through. They are also easily poisoned by substances such as silicone, which plug them right up (hense sensor safe RTVs).
Cheap aftermarket O2 sensors often don't work right out of the box, I only use AC-Delco sensors when I replace them.
Other than that, I see that your IAC is infact working fairly closely at about 50 counts at idle. Ideal is around 25, but that is close enough as is, and indicates to me that you do not have a vaccum leak on your hands. Your MAP sensor readings are low, but we already know that they should be due to how the engine is running.
At this point I would replace your oxygen sensor and install a 195F thermostat. Fuel injected engines like to run hot, you won't see any gain in performance by running a cooler one. The concept there was to try and keep the air charge cooler, but with a controlled fuel mixture based on oxygen in the exhaust will do a much better job. A hotter engine is a more efficient engine.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Im for sure going to do both of those things. I guess what trips me out is it seems like as soon as it hits closed loop is when it runs better but it also is when my check engine light comes on. So im ASSUMING that when closed loop happens, it starts reading the 02, realizes something is wrong, and kicks it self way out of whack and brings the BLMs up to 172. So mostly, im just curious why it also runs bad in open loop where it pays no attention to the o2? I am curious to see what a new o2 will do though any way.
The running poorly in open loop could be just your engine's specs being so different from a stock TBI engine. That is where programming a chip for your engine would really make it shine. If you get a good amount of data and really populate that BLM table, (MAP vs RPM) and send it all in to Brian at TBI chips, he can give you a very good idea of what needs to be done, if it is mechanical or not.
Only problem there is that you have to actually drive the truck to get that kind of data. Populating the whole table isn't easy either.
Only problem there is that you have to actually drive the truck to get that kind of data. Populating the whole table isn't easy either.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Thats what im probably going to have to end up doing. Any insite into the rich/lean counter staying at zero when other peoples seem to very alot?
Like Russ said, the oxygen sensor compares oxygen levels on both sides of the sensor.
The trick is, where does it get it's reference?
I have not done a study on all the different versions, and I have seen one with holes in the outside casing.
But, most of them get their reference from the wire you hook it up with.
In other words, they sense the outside oxygen level from air that makes its way down between the wires inside the insulation.
And a great way to keep one from working, is to cut and splice the cable.
The splice seals the wire, and the sensor does not work.
Just something to keep in mind when changing it.
Plus, when your truck is in closed loop, it is adjusting things according to what the sensors are telling it.
And when it makes an adjustment, it watches what happens and makes the next adjustment to make it better.
When it is not in closed loop, it uses preburned lookup tables to set the adjustments.
It pretty much ignores most of the sensors.
If the temp sensor is giving a reasonable reading, it might use that to select which part of the table it uses.
But it is prepared to run with no sensor input at all if necessary.
Using basically a "best guess" stratagy.
That is why your truck runs so bad in open loop.
The lookup tables burned into your controller are not right for your truck as it now stands.
And, like you guessed, when it starts paying attention to the sensors is when it sees one out of range and throws the code.
The trick is, where does it get it's reference?
I have not done a study on all the different versions, and I have seen one with holes in the outside casing.
But, most of them get their reference from the wire you hook it up with.
In other words, they sense the outside oxygen level from air that makes its way down between the wires inside the insulation.
And a great way to keep one from working, is to cut and splice the cable.
The splice seals the wire, and the sensor does not work.
Just something to keep in mind when changing it.
Plus, when your truck is in closed loop, it is adjusting things according to what the sensors are telling it.
And when it makes an adjustment, it watches what happens and makes the next adjustment to make it better.
When it is not in closed loop, it uses preburned lookup tables to set the adjustments.
It pretty much ignores most of the sensors.
If the temp sensor is giving a reasonable reading, it might use that to select which part of the table it uses.
But it is prepared to run with no sensor input at all if necessary.
Using basically a "best guess" stratagy.
That is why your truck runs so bad in open loop.
The lookup tables burned into your controller are not right for your truck as it now stands.
And, like you guessed, when it starts paying attention to the sensors is when it sees one out of range and throws the code.
magik235
Still Alive
I adapted a 4 wire sensor so I could have a heated O2 sensor. I had to cut wires but I used gold plated crimp connectors. I have headers and my old one would not heat up enough to work. The new one works great. Could you please post a picture of your flag page data?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Another thing that trips me out is that the truck used to run significantly better at idle. Right after i put the rebuilt motor in it rean pretty much perfect except it would surge at idle after it sat at a stop light for a little bit. So i dont know why it runs worse. On that note, i can pin point the moment that it made the jump from just kinda bad some times to bad all the time.
SKIP STORY IF YOU WOULD LIKE-Try to make this as short as possible.
I was going for a drive with my girl friend at the time threw the oregon coast range and wanted to show her the spot back in the woods where i got my M.I.P.(minor in posestion of alcohol)The road back there is kinda rough but normaly doable in a typical passenger car. Well this was winter and it was snowy and muddy. At one point i started getting stuck in a mud hole. Bad! i opened my door and the mud/snow was a few inches below the door! So to avoid getting muddy i crawled up on the hood and reached down and locked the hubs. Got back in the truck and put it in 4lo. Figured i would be all set and just cruise on out of there. NOPE! I proptly start buiring the front end as well! So i do what any logical person would, mash the gas and rock that bitch as hard as i possibly can from forward to reverse and back again! Going from floored in first letting off only long enough to slam it into reverse and floor it again! did that probably half dozen times(it was pretty ****ing bad ass!!!) Just working the piss out of it! Giving it every last ounce it had in it just praying something wouldnt let go as i spin the motor to the moon and back time and time again! finaly made it out. Slowly crawling forward with the pedel still held FIRMLY to the floor. Turning around and getting back threw was alot easyer as i hit it with a good bit of speed! Although quite a rough ride on the return trip it worked out well.
STORY MODE OFF
After that, every time i came down to idle it ran like ass. strange eh? I dont know what would have changed but something did.
On the four wire o2 sensor, How did you figure out what wires to use? I have a buddy that has a good spare 4 wire off an 07 chevy and said i could have it. How do i figure out what wires to hook up to mine? I know that one goes to the orginal wire, one goes to ground, and one goes to a switched 12v source. But arent they all the same color?
SKIP STORY IF YOU WOULD LIKE-Try to make this as short as possible.
I was going for a drive with my girl friend at the time threw the oregon coast range and wanted to show her the spot back in the woods where i got my M.I.P.(minor in posestion of alcohol)The road back there is kinda rough but normaly doable in a typical passenger car. Well this was winter and it was snowy and muddy. At one point i started getting stuck in a mud hole. Bad! i opened my door and the mud/snow was a few inches below the door! So to avoid getting muddy i crawled up on the hood and reached down and locked the hubs. Got back in the truck and put it in 4lo. Figured i would be all set and just cruise on out of there. NOPE! I proptly start buiring the front end as well! So i do what any logical person would, mash the gas and rock that bitch as hard as i possibly can from forward to reverse and back again! Going from floored in first letting off only long enough to slam it into reverse and floor it again! did that probably half dozen times(it was pretty ****ing bad ass!!!) Just working the piss out of it! Giving it every last ounce it had in it just praying something wouldnt let go as i spin the motor to the moon and back time and time again! finaly made it out. Slowly crawling forward with the pedel still held FIRMLY to the floor. Turning around and getting back threw was alot easyer as i hit it with a good bit of speed! Although quite a rough ride on the return trip it worked out well.
STORY MODE OFF
After that, every time i came down to idle it ran like ass. strange eh? I dont know what would have changed but something did.
On the four wire o2 sensor, How did you figure out what wires to use? I have a buddy that has a good spare 4 wire off an 07 chevy and said i could have it. How do i figure out what wires to hook up to mine? I know that one goes to the orginal wire, one goes to ground, and one goes to a switched 12v source. But arent they all the same color?
magik235
Still Alive
y5mgisi
1 ton status
the pics didnt show up.
y5mgisi
1 ton status
ok the big list showed up. So i think he has dephi one. which shows signal- and signal+ but both are violet. How did you know what one to use?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Any ideas about my lean/rich counter staying at zero and what thats supposed to mean?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
ok scratch that. Its got a blue, white, black, and black. So the black and black should be the heater so do i use blue or white for the signal?
y5mgisi
1 ton status
Going to try and install that o2 sensor tonight/tomorrow. It has two black wires, a white, and a blue. Im going to hook one black to ground, one black to switched 12v, the blue to the original signal wire, and the white to nothing. We'll see what happens.
magik235
Still Alive
Your format is right except you need to hook the white wire (signal -) to ground. I used the same ground as the heater ground. Try to keep the blue lead the same length as your original O2 lead.
The link below has generalized directions that I used as guidelines.
http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?manID=&kw=NTK Universal O2 Sensor Installation Instructions&pt=4
Hmm, your story makes me think you may have wiped a cam lobe. Was that on the old engine, or the new rebuilt one?
magik235
Still Alive
Or floated the valves and severely weakened one of the valve springs.
