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CK5
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The Willomet Charger
- Thread starter AgDieseler
- Start date
A desecration to Mopar nuts everywhere, this is my protouring, LS-powered, 1970 Dodge Charger; built at my shop, Willomet Motor & Fabrication.
Just watching and happy to see it come together....
“You could have been driving it by now, but no.”
That tracks.
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve converted to this line of thinking in the last two years or so. There’s a comment @Stephen made a long time ago that I think of often - “eventually, you see the welder or grinder as just another tool in the drawer.”
David
Someone needs to bumper sticker that quote..
Refresh my memory. I know it's a unibody car your basically building a frame for. So car and frame will be rigidly attached correct?
Halos and a-pillars can be a total pain in the ass, but if your going to do it, I’d go into the engine compartment as well, it does a tremendous amount to stiffen the car..
With that being said, you’ve done so much on the rockers and chassis I would think you’d be fine with just a main hoop and down bars, you can do a real low and sexy door bar for some added rigidity, certainly be easier for a headliner, a pillar trim, dash fitment and final cage and interior paint finishing. But If the cage is well planned and executed it can do a lot for the car, it also makes quite the visual statement to go along with everything else you’re doing.
I could argue it both ways I guess, whenever i build a car for myself(haha) I’ll do a full cage, engine cage etc, with the intention of it being a autocross machine that sees some street time
But, really boils down to preference I have two cars for builds that the customers have completely different outlooks.
I have a 71 cuda coming in for a full build, it has a
full caged mocked up, the customer hates the halo and a pillars in his line of sight so I’ll be cutting it all out leaving the main hoop and down bars, mostly to tie into the rear rails and provide me some opportunities for additional support for the coilover
I have a 69 Camaro here for a full build as well, it currently that has a very poorly done full cage that will be getting cut out and re done, I plan on making a plate for the a pillar/kick panel sheet metal below the dash, that will be welded in and spread the load across all the tin, I’ll then run my tubing to that. Similiar to how guys do JK Jeep cages. From there I’ll run tubes forward to the firewall and do a couple of down tubes to the Detroit speed subframe.
I’m not sure I was much help, your going through a situation I debate constantly.
Hahah.
I guess what I’m trying to say, The work you’ve done on the bottom side could live either way. No front half makes trim and finish stuff easier, bottom side still provides plenty of rigidity for a fun street car that sees occasional abuse, full cage is another opportunity to show off some fab work while complementing what youve already done on the bottom to make a even more impressive car.
With that being said, you’ve done so much on the rockers and chassis I would think you’d be fine with just a main hoop and down bars, you can do a real low and sexy door bar for some added rigidity, certainly be easier for a headliner, a pillar trim, dash fitment and final cage and interior paint finishing. But If the cage is well planned and executed it can do a lot for the car, it also makes quite the visual statement to go along with everything else you’re doing.
I could argue it both ways I guess, whenever i build a car for myself(haha) I’ll do a full cage, engine cage etc, with the intention of it being a autocross machine that sees some street time
But, really boils down to preference I have two cars for builds that the customers have completely different outlooks.
I have a 71 cuda coming in for a full build, it has a
full caged mocked up, the customer hates the halo and a pillars in his line of sight so I’ll be cutting it all out leaving the main hoop and down bars, mostly to tie into the rear rails and provide me some opportunities for additional support for the coilover
I have a 69 Camaro here for a full build as well, it currently that has a very poorly done full cage that will be getting cut out and re done, I plan on making a plate for the a pillar/kick panel sheet metal below the dash, that will be welded in and spread the load across all the tin, I’ll then run my tubing to that. Similiar to how guys do JK Jeep cages. From there I’ll run tubes forward to the firewall and do a couple of down tubes to the Detroit speed subframe.
I’m not sure I was much help, your going through a situation I debate constantly.
Hahah.
I guess what I’m trying to say, The work you’ve done on the bottom side could live either way. No front half makes trim and finish stuff easier, bottom side still provides plenty of rigidity for a fun street car that sees occasional abuse, full cage is another opportunity to show off some fab work while complementing what youve already done on the bottom to make a even more impressive car.
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In a perfect world. Full cage no doubt. But in a world where unless it's a full out race machine it's hard to build a cage that won't interfere with interior comfort. Some interfere big time.
It would be very nice to establish seating position before a full cage/partial cage decision is made. And like was said above if your gonna do a full cage, an engine cage is not that much more work and will give you additional rigidity. Pretty much a full cage car should have no frame flex.
Now in the real world and not being a race car but a cruiser/ice cream getter/drag car/autocross car/I always wanted this car/feel good when I drive it car. And with the extensive additions made I really think you will have little trouble acheiving your goals.
There are several small but very time consuming things you might be able to do to increase rigidity even more. Internal bracing in tube structures, adding tie ins in several places with the body and B pillar. On any crossmember do a full surround on the exterior rails where the cross ties in, sheet metal structures where the cage mounts to spread the loads from the frame to a single bar.
If it is going to be basically a unibody with a frame and body tied together adding bracing to the A pillar of the car itself.
There are so many ways to add rigidity to a car without a full cage I don't think it will be necessary to acheiving your goals
It would be very nice to establish seating position before a full cage/partial cage decision is made. And like was said above if your gonna do a full cage, an engine cage is not that much more work and will give you additional rigidity. Pretty much a full cage car should have no frame flex.
Now in the real world and not being a race car but a cruiser/ice cream getter/drag car/autocross car/I always wanted this car/feel good when I drive it car. And with the extensive additions made I really think you will have little trouble acheiving your goals.
There are several small but very time consuming things you might be able to do to increase rigidity even more. Internal bracing in tube structures, adding tie ins in several places with the body and B pillar. On any crossmember do a full surround on the exterior rails where the cross ties in, sheet metal structures where the cage mounts to spread the loads from the frame to a single bar.
If it is going to be basically a unibody with a frame and body tied together adding bracing to the A pillar of the car itself.
There are so many ways to add rigidity to a car without a full cage I don't think it will be necessary to acheiving your goals
Yes. Exactly. Rigidly framed unibody car.
I’m still thinking on a design for how the towers will brace to the firewall and transfer loading to the rockers. I’m glad to read your comments, as a cage may be the most efficient way to achieve that end.
This is another consideration. I like the look of a cage that’s high and tight to the body, and the A pillar on the car is so small and wimpy looking. A 1-5/8” tube integrated to the pillar would look very stout.
This has been a big concern. With a small A pillar, a tube wouldn’t harm visibility too much, but I think a lot about ease of ingress and egress. I will tolerate a lot of inconvenience, but the wife’s fuse is substantially shorter. She can’t trip over door bars...her Volt doesn’t have any.
The car is meant as a no-compromises personal expression of taste (function first) and a demonstration of capabilities for future client projects. A nicely built cage could be a key differentiator.
Got it. I’ll have both seats mocked up, with shifter and steering and pedals in rough positions before settling on this.
I guess my question should have two parts - is a cage necessary to achieving my functional goals, and is a cage too f’ing cool to pass up.
I have internal reinforcements on the 4x3 rockers that @Deuling made up for me, and the 5x4 rockers will get similar treatment. You’ve got me thinking on crossmember surrounds. I’ll keep working on it, but you’ve given me a lot to think about, so thank you. Lots of small details are ultimately what make a car stand out (to me).
Big help, and I continue to appreciate your comments and insight.
David
The difference between a 75k car and 150k car is the details.
More than happy to provide an opinion!
The more I think about it....
You made a square car.
It should have a badass cage.
Those 305’s up front are going to transfer some load, a nice engine cage will do a lot to stop that.
Here’s that 69 did the 285’s on, I didn’t build this car from the ground, just went through it added some tube, made control arms, t56 magnum, fuel injection, full tmi interior, hand made steel console, had wheels made for it, anvil auto carbon fiber, cut and tucked the rear bumper, 3” exhaust etc etc lol.
before picture of the engine compartment and after,
Along with some other thread stealing distractions for informational purposes
hahaha..... But i took that car, the previous builder was a hack of a con man, didn’t give a care for details, I went though and tried to clean up all the detail stuff without getting really wild with the budget.
It has a 427 ls3, that when showed up had a 980 vacuum secondary Holley. Smh.. haha
More than happy to provide an opinion!
The more I think about it....
You made a square car.
It should have a badass cage.
Those 305’s up front are going to transfer some load, a nice engine cage will do a lot to stop that.
Here’s that 69 did the 285’s on, I didn’t build this car from the ground, just went through it added some tube, made control arms, t56 magnum, fuel injection, full tmi interior, hand made steel console, had wheels made for it, anvil auto carbon fiber, cut and tucked the rear bumper, 3” exhaust etc etc lol.
before picture of the engine compartment and after,
Along with some other thread stealing distractions for informational purposes
hahaha..... But i took that car, the previous builder was a hack of a con man, didn’t give a care for details, I went though and tried to clean up all the detail stuff without getting really wild with the budget.It has a 427 ls3, that when showed up had a 980 vacuum secondary Holley. Smh.. haha
Another thing to think about. In a modern car, specifically a Ford focus, with a super charged engine.
This is a car that could keep most exotic cars within sight on a track. He would go pro the car when racing ,even on a fairly stiff modern it had enough flex where it would seperate the top of the door from the body.
We put a b pillar in it with plans for a full cage. He said it was a huge difference but you could still see the flex on go pro footage. He could now stay with exotic cars for the most part. We did a full cage and it made a difference, but he felt the b pillar made a massive difference while the full cage made a big difference.
At this point that car would pass most exotics in a corner, while he couldn't get far enough ahead in the corners to beat them overall.
Well at this point it was pretty much a full time race car and he needed to do some more.
We joined the cage to the body at the A pillar and B pillar and anywhere else that was close. At that point the car was so stiff it had near zero flex. There were very few street legal cars that could keep up with him.
I have done a couple other cars that really prove the point that a car can almost always be stiffer.
But it is a balancing game between weight stiffness and comfort.
I may not comment much but I love this build.
I kind of hope you attempt a full cage. But I certainly can see the very serious advantages to just a b pillar
This is a car that could keep most exotic cars within sight on a track. He would go pro the car when racing ,even on a fairly stiff modern it had enough flex where it would seperate the top of the door from the body.
We put a b pillar in it with plans for a full cage. He said it was a huge difference but you could still see the flex on go pro footage. He could now stay with exotic cars for the most part. We did a full cage and it made a difference, but he felt the b pillar made a massive difference while the full cage made a big difference.
At this point that car would pass most exotics in a corner, while he couldn't get far enough ahead in the corners to beat them overall.
Well at this point it was pretty much a full time race car and he needed to do some more.
We joined the cage to the body at the A pillar and B pillar and anywhere else that was close. At that point the car was so stiff it had near zero flex. There were very few street legal cars that could keep up with him.
I have done a couple other cars that really prove the point that a car can almost always be stiffer.
But it is a balancing game between weight stiffness and comfort.
I may not comment much but I love this build.
I kind of hope you attempt a full cage. But I certainly can see the very serious advantages to just a b pillar
Think my blazer could be a bit stiffer??
Good point on the 305s transferring lots of load to the chassis. I really dig the details on that Camaro, especially the underhood layout. Clean build.The difference between a 75k car and 150k car is the details.
More than happy to provide an opinion!
The more I think about it....
You made a square car.
It should have a badass cage.
Those 305’s up front are going to transfer some load, a nice engine cage will do a lot to stop that.
Here’s that 69 did the 285’s on, I didn’t build this car from the ground, just went through it added some tube, made control arms, t56 magnum, fuel injection, full tmi interior, hand made steel console, had wheels made for it, anvil auto carbon fiber, cut and tucked the rear bumper, 3” exhaust etc etc lol.
before picture of the engine compartment and after,
Along with some other thread stealing distractions for informational purposes
Thanks again for the input and insight. I really like the idea of a full cage, and especially if it's integrated to the pillars and roofline - kind of making the cage part of the upholstery/interior.
David
Done decided then. It will be awesome with a full cage. I have seen several cages intergrated into headliner/ A pillar/B pillar etc . Lots of work but in this car I think worth it.
I didn't catch it but I assume your running coilovers all 4 corners?
With that and your steamrollers a full cage and all your chassis work this thing I think will exceed your goals
I could add a long and detailed answer but it's late I'm heading to bed in a moment, lol.
Basically I'll say this. You're going through all this effort to make the underside of the car completely badass. Why stop there and leave the rest "plain".
Basically I'll say this. You're going through all this effort to make the underside of the car completely badass. Why stop there and leave the rest "plain".
Done. Decided. Yes. Incidentally, I intend to drive this at several points during the build, and enjoy the car at a few different finish levels - from raw with a base engine tune to where the cage cover panels are finished and upholstered.
Coilovers on all four - unsure of brand yet. Chris Alston's torque arm setup uses VariShock, while the Magnum Force front suspension comes with QA1. I'll standardize, but that's a ways off.
Clearly, whoever said "less is more" was not into cars.
David
That thing probably sounds like a wet fart
I just picked up the plate for the front torque boxes along with the subframe connector tubing. Steel has become stupid expensive.
This small collection was a tidy $300.
That is all.
David
This small collection was a tidy $300.
That is all.
David
Always amazed at how little I get for my cash when I go to the steel shop
