Trifecta discussion for BB12

[blazinzuk]

The trail leader just sets the cruise control and points the truck down the trail. HAHA

I wondered if they leave broken trucks to fend for themselves. Also with a full club for support you can have a couple of guys run through the trail at like 6PM and check on any stragglers I suppose.

Thats what it sounded like to me. They have a midgunner and a tailgunner. Those guys are the first to stay with folks who break down. I am not sure if they have others on that trail just to stay with folks who break or if they by pass some stuff to not break things.

I know on other EJS runs I have gone on the hard stuff gets mostly bypassed, with only a few of us trying it

 

[miniwally]

I haven't ever done an official EJS run but have seen them on the trial a few times.

Eric's right they don't stop, if you break I think you get left with a cleanup crew, they also have radios etc so getting parts into them is a simple as a radio call out. Then there's the BLM chopper.

Michael has been through the trail enough times with large groups he knows how it's done. I have to wonder if the demographic of say the average EJS and TLC guy is a bit older and shall we say more mature than the average BB attendee?

I have to wonder if the reason we see issues is just simply the age and attitude that we have. We're there for fun and that means being a bit hard on equipment, the older crowd is there to have fun as well but that means getting through the trail to get their Metamucil in town in time?

 

[76zimmer]

There is no doubt experience on the trifecta will tell you what you need to have and how to drive it. Also everytime something happened, EVERYONE was getting out of their vehicles. Trying to get the group going again was a PITA from my POV.

A few options:

If you got a passenger, let them take photos, or give someone else your camera, but driver stays with their vehicle for the trail, unless a designated (by the trail leader) break is called for. We had backed up trucks at times waiting to do an obstacle, because there were so many that were parked and jammed up any open space beyond the obstacle.

Start at 5am for the big groups, with questionable vehicles.

Have 2 designated spotters, then they can rotate positions in the group, both spotters start out with the front of the group...when the group comes to an obstacle, spotter #1 can stay at that obstacle until all vehicles are through it, and then hitch a ride to the next obstacle, where spotter #2 will be spotting vehicles by the time spotter #1 arrives. As spotter #2 is still spotting the trucks, spotter #1 can walk up to the lead vehicle again for the next obstacle coming up on the trail, where spotter #2 would then walk up to the front of the pack, and continue this throughout the trail...this would keep the group moving, which in my opinion would have shortened the trail time considerably. Having the trail leader spot everyone coming through the obstacle certainly took a lot of time.

I think it is important for the newbs (as myself) to have correct spotting and coaching technique for some obstacles...you just can't learn how to crawl on rocks when all you do is play in the sand and mud!

 

[jms]

A few tidbits from the CruiseMoab Golden Spike runs; I've been mostly helping out as tailgunner, but was once also asked to lead when the trail leader suffered a break.

Tech stuff: CM has a mandatory tech inspection. To get on a Golden Spike run, you'll need two lockers, or locker rear and that ATRAC computer thingie in the front.

Group size is typically 16-20 vehicles.

The run last April was 23 trucks; I was in the back. Didn't stop at any obstacle until we got to the crack, around 2pm. Everyone just kept moving. Not very fast, but rather steady. Minimal to no spotting. I spent lunch time at the Crack removing one front shock where the seal had let go, and was the last one to cross the crack at 2:39pm. We were on the highway ~5:30pm.

The CruiseMoab run had breakdowns in the past. Two years ago, the trail leader broke a steering box sector shaft on Golden Stairs. The truck was moved to a safe location, they made a 2m radio call to camp for parts; two other trucks stayed with the disabled vehicle, and I was asked to take over the lead to get the majority of the group out. There was another break, a rear differential at the bypass to Body Snatcher (yes, there is a ledge; methinks the break was due to the driver being tired...). We split off another small group that chaperoned the handicapped vehicle, and lent a strap where needed, whereas I continued with the main group. On the exit road, we met two trucks coming in, carrying the spare sector shaft. I cut a tire somewhere coming down Gold Bar or on the exit road and had to change tires about half a mile from the highway. All in all, we were out at ~7:30pm, including the truck with the broken rear axle; the guy with the broken sector shaft was in camp at 1am.

Last year I was passenger in Claudia's FJ40 when she broke a front axleshaft; it let go at the Golden Crack. Again, the main group continued, and a small group stayed to repair the vehicle - we had a spare short-side assembly in the truck; removed the broken part, installed the replacement, and continued onwards. We were some 50 minutes behind the main group, out at ~6:30pm.

So: the group splits in case of breaking something, and the main group continues; the objective is always to get the majority of participants off the trail, while still making sure that the broken party isn't left alone.

Spotting: the trail leader spots only a few vehicles in the front, and only when needed, but typically continues to motor on. In my gang, we've sort of become self-sufficient in terms of spotting, and spot ourselves when needed, sometimes just via the CB radio. But everyone knows that they can always ask for a spot in case where they're not sure - and everyone does, including me, and even my wife . It's a lot easier to spot a truck through an obstacle, than to recover/repair a broken vehicle.

Main job of the trail leader is to move, not to babysit everyone. CruiseMoab typically tries to distribute a few trucks with experienced drivers across the group so that help/advice/spotting is close by. It's encouraged that those new to the trail drive behind a similarly set up vehicle, so line choice is easier.

To me, it's important that those clearing an obstacle first move forward to the extent that all trucks in the group can pass the obstacle and still fit - I think that's important early in the trail (Waterfall, Wedgie, LaunchPad, and Zuki Hill) when a lot of time can be wasted.

As for taking it easy: here are the things I usually don't bother with (for various reasons): (1) the inside line on the switchbacks, (2) that optional ledge left of the trail, near the cliff once you're up from the switchbacks, (3) the hard line (left) on the Waterfall, (4) the 'Wall' left side of the trail just before the Wedgie, (5) the ledge on Zuki Hill, (6) Double Whammy, and (7) Body Snatcher - got the dent already. And I think the line has changed at what we used to called '2 Ledges', coming down from the rim midway in the trail: nobody drives that ugly drop right next to the tree anymore, but takes the bypass a little further down the hill. And as of now, I have no intention of trying the W.E.D. route that branches off after Skyline Drive and rejoins after Zuki Hill. So, maybe not hard enough for some, but works out to plenty of fun for my truck and me.

And for what it's worth: Golden Spike is a trail that's not hard, but that will bite you the moment you let your attention slip. So I try to remind myself periodically to remain focused; my shtick for this is to try and drive everything as smooth as possible, not slip a tire, and not hit any rocks. Doesn't always work, but that's what bumpers are for. I also know myself well enough to know that I get tired when I become dehydrated, so I make a point of keeping my fluid intake up - no alcohol, goes without saying. Same for blood sugar, especially when it gets into the afternoon. I found an energy drink useful in the afternoon. But I'm getting old.

Anyways, maybe this is useful.

 

[miniwally]

A few tidbits from the CruiseMoab Golden Spike runs; I've been mostly helping out as tailgunner, but was once also asked to lead when the trail leader suffered a break.

Tech stuff: CM has a mandatory tech inspection. To get on a Golden Spike run, you'll need two lockers, or locker rear and that ATRAC computer thingie in the front.

Group size is typically 16-20 vehicles.

The run last April was 23 trucks; I was in the back. Didn't stop at any obstacle until we got to the crack, around 2pm. Everyone just kept moving. Not very fast, but rather steady. Minimal to no spotting. I spent lunch time at the Crack removing one front shock where the seal had let go, and was the last one to cross the crack at 2:39pm. We were on the highway ~5:30pm.

The CruiseMoab run had breakdowns in the past. Two years ago, the trail leader broke a steering box sector shaft on Golden Stairs. The truck was moved to a safe location, they made a 2m radio call to camp for parts; two other trucks stayed with the disabled vehicle, and I was asked to take over the lead to get the majority of the group out. There was another break, a rear differential at the bypass to Body Snatcher (yes, there is a ledge; methinks the break was due to the driver being tired...). We split off another small group that chaperoned the handicapped vehicle, and lent a strap where needed, whereas I continued with the main group. On the exit road, we met two trucks coming in, carrying the spare sector shaft. I cut a tire somewhere coming down Gold Bar or on the exit road and had to change tires about half a mile from the highway. All in all, we were out at ~7:30pm, including the truck with the broken rear axle; the guy with the broken sector shaft was in camp at 1am.

Last year I was passenger in Claudia's FJ40 when she broke a front axleshaft; it let go at the Golden Crack. Again, the main group continued, and a small group stayed to repair the vehicle - we had a spare short-side assembly in the truck; removed the broken part, installed the replacement, and continued onwards. We were some 50 minutes behind the main group, out at ~6:30pm.

So: the group splits in case of breaking something, and the main group continues; the objective is always to get the majority of participants off the trail, while still making sure that the broken party isn't left alone.

Spotting: the trail leader spots only a few vehicles in the front, and only when needed, but typically continues to motor on. In my gang, we've sort of become self-sufficient in terms of spotting, and spot ourselves when needed, sometimes just via the CB radio. But everyone knows that they can always ask for a spot in case where they're not sure - and everyone does, including me, and even my wife . It's a lot easier to spot a truck through an obstacle, than to recover/repair a broken vehicle.

Main job of the trail leader is to move, not to babysit everyone. CruiseMoab typically tries to distribute a few trucks with experienced drivers across the group so that help/advice/spotting is close by. It's encouraged that those new to the trail drive behind a similarly set up vehicle, so line choice is easier.

To me, it's important that those clearing an obstacle first move forward to the extent that all trucks in the group can pass the obstacle and still fit - I think that's important early in the trail (Waterfall, Wedgie, LaunchPad, and Zuki Hill) when a lot of time can be wasted.

As for taking it easy: here are the things I usually don't bother with (for various reasons): (1) the inside line on the switchbacks, (2) that optional ledge left of the trail, near the cliff once you're up from the switchbacks, (3) the hard line (left) on the Waterfall, (4) the 'Wall' left side of the trail just before the Wedgie, (5) the ledge on Zuki Hill, (6) Double Whammy, and (7) Body Snatcher - got the dent already. And I think the line has changed at what we used to called '2 Ledges', coming down from the rim midway in the trail: nobody drives that ugly drop right next to the tree anymore, but takes the bypass a little further down the hill. And as of now, I have no intention of trying the W.E.D. route that branches off after Skyline Drive and rejoins after Zuki Hill. So, maybe not hard enough for some, but works out to plenty of fun for my truck and me.

And for what it's worth: Golden Spike is a trail that's not hard, but that will bite you the moment you let your attention slip. So I try to remind myself periodically to remain focused; my shtick for this is to try and drive everything as smooth as possible, not slip a tire, and not hit any rocks. Doesn't always work, but that's what bumpers are for. I also know myself well enough to know that I get tired when I become dehydrated, so I make a point of keeping my fluid intake up - no alcohol, goes without saying. Same for blood sugar, especially when it gets into the afternoon. I found an energy drink useful in the afternoon. But I'm getting old.

Anyways, maybe this is useful.

Ironically enough the year Keith popped his oil filter this is basiacally what I had going on and I passed the first part of my group leaving just before Butt scratcher ledge. I was coming in with Stephen and they were leaving to head out. We had left Kert and Eric really early to head back down poison spider.

I know that Dave was fighting some issues in his group but I had actually stopped my group several times and played around and looked at sites as well.

Good info to reinforce what I had always thought.

 

[jms]

..
I have to wonder if the reason we see issues is just simply the age and attitude that we have. We're there for fun and that means being a bit hard on equipment, the older crowd is there to have fun as well but that means getting through the trail to get their Metamucil in town in time?

On this year's run in April, the attitude of the trail leader at the brief driver's meeting in the morning was that (1) he had in fact cold beer waiting for him in camp, and that (2) it would be quite bothersome to him if he were in any way detained from opening one not much later than, say 6pm, and (3) while he wanted us to have fun on the trail, he also made it clear that (4) he expected us to know how to drive, and (5) breaking stuff, or holding up the proceedings otherwise would be frowned upon mainly for reasons detailed above.

Nobody had any arguments

 

[mrk5]

I like all this discussion. Gives me a lot to think about.

 

[mrk5]

Ironically enough the year Keith popped his oil filter this is basiacally what I had going on and I passed the first part of my group leaving just before Butt scratcher ledge. I was coming in with Stephen and they were leaving to head out. We had left Kert and Eric really early to head back down poison spider.

I know that Dave was fighting some issues in his group but I had actually stopped my group several times and played around and looked at sites as well.

Good info to reinforce what I had always thought.

That was the year Nicole and I ran with you on the trifecta. After The duct tape repair didn't hold Scotty and his crew hung back with Keith to grill up some grub. We led out the rest of our group. I think we were at Hwy 191 by about 7 or 7:30.

That was the year we had the full size Broncos from Hefty Fab and James road out with Brian in his white first gen.

 

[Stephen]

Mindset is huge on this one, I think you need to be prepared to travel, not play. If you want to play, do one end or the other by itself, it's more fun that way anyway. This run has to keep moving to finish in the daylight and that requires a mindset that is not average for this group. You need to be happy to just complete the trail, not drive every option.
Splitting the group when someone breaks works well but you have to have multiple guys that know the way. Or some good gps units and the ability to use them.

 

[Jason4x4]

The trail leader just sets the cruise control and points the truck down the trail. HAHA

I know that's how Dirk leads a trail.

 

[Jason4x4]

I will be in the 4runner next year, and I will do this trail, but I will NOT be doing it with BB, I will grab some az guys, either before or after BB, and run it, because I will have my kid in bed at the hotel at bedtime. I think it would be more fun in a small group, and we can hustle where we want, and play where we want.

hopefully I will be there for a week next year.

Maybe you should just scratch it off as an official run, but let people group themselves together, and just make sure they have some phone numbers for people that can relay messages.

 

[ktmoutfront]

I will be in the 4runner next year, and I will do this trail, but I will NOT be doing it with BB, I will grab some az guys, either before or after BB, and run it, because I will have my kid in bed at the hotel at bedtime. I think it would be more fun in a small group, and we can hustle where we want, and play where we want.

hopefully I will be there for a week next year.

Maybe you should just scratch it off as an official run, but let people group themselves together, and just make sure they have some phone numbers for people that can relay messages.

If everything goes right, this is my plan.

 

[kgblazerfive]

In regards to the trifecta run, I was the guy running the white Blazer on 33's. I truly enjoyed this run, even with the 17.5 hours! I enjoyed how everyone jumped in to help, when something went wrong.

. I want to thank all those involved for allowing me to enjoy that trail for the first time. It was a blast! Patrick aka 500$k5

This comment for a first post is why I would run it again.

Before we started the trail I asked pretty much everybody what kind of a run did they want.

A fast run through everything get out on time and race through the trail.

Or a casual trail run check things out take some pictures have a good time stop for lunch etc.

The group said the slower one.

Granted it turned out to be alot longer then I think any expected. However almost all of the comments in this that are negative are from people who were not on the trail. I haven't seen a "man that sucked I am never wheeling again" post. Alot of time was spent just hanging out and talking, cuz we had lots of time during the breaking to talk.

Do I think that there are some things that need to be addressed, yup.

That fuel siphon thing that Scott posted is a good one. I brought a very large medical bag, glad we did not need it but it was there. I have a spare oil filter now. Glad I didn't need it either.

I would venture to bet that every one who had issues with their truck wont have the same ones again.

Its a long trail, It is going to take a long time. It is going to take a longer time when there is breakage.

Why do we go wheeling? To race through a trial and "get it done". Or to have a good time meet new people or old friends and have a good time.

 

[miniwally]

This comment for a first post is why I would run it again.

Before we started the trail I asked pretty much everybody what kind of a run did they want.

A fast run through everything get out on time and race through the trail.

Or a casual trail run check things out take some pictures have a good time stop for lunch etc.

The group said the slower one.

Granted it turned out to be alot longer then I think any expected. However almost all of the comments in this that are negative are from people who were not on the trail. I haven't seen a "man that sucked I am never wheeling again" post. Alot of time was spent just hanging out and talking, cuz we had lots of time during the breaking to talk.

Do I think that there are some things that need to be addressed, yup.

That fuel siphon thing that Scott posted is a good one. I brought a very large medical bag, glad we did not need it but it was there. I have a spare oil filter now. Glad I didn't need it either.

I would venture to bet that every one who had issues with their truck wont have the same ones again.

Its a long trail, It is going to take a long time. It is going to take a longer time when there is breakage.

Why do we go wheeling? To drink beer at the end of the trailTo race through a trial and "get it done" Well thats where the beer is. Or to have a good time meet new people or old friends and have a good time.I can do that with beer

Beer isn't that the answer to all of life's questions?

Edit
While I do agree with your thoughts Keith I have to say that I prefer to "get it done" and do more trails faster than one or two slower. I also like a 5:00 or 6:00 cocktail hour at camp. It's just my style and your right the bulk of the ones whining weren't there, I wasn't even able to attend so really I don't have a say about this years run.

Scott is the only one that ultimately has a say in how this event happens and goes down. I know that he didn't get in with my brother and dad at midnight to go up there just cause he could, he did that because there was an issue and it's his event. If he's fine with this trail taking until all hours of the day that's fine but I think he is seeing that in short order there won't be the support staff to do that. I would be willing to try it one, more, time as the leader my rules, my speed and discretion, unfortunately I don't think anyone would want to do it again with me which defeats the purpose for Scott. I also wouldn't want to be the perpetual leader for that trail.

 

[DickeysK5]

Granted it turned out to be alot longer then I think any expected. However almost all of the comments in this that are negative are from people who were not on the trail. I haven't seen a "man that sucked I am never wheeling again" post. Alot of time was spent just hanging out and talking, cuz we had lots of time during the breaking to talk.

Why do we go wheeling? To race through a trial and "get it done". Or to have a good time meet new people or old friends and have a good time.

Good points.

 

[Jason4x4]

something else that could happen, is have each rig with a camera, give it to the rig in front or behind them so they can get pics of their trucks, then traffic can keep on moving.

Either way, if a tri fecta run is done, I think we need to do a 5 or 6 truck group, not only to keep it small, but also to help figure out how to get them through, then add a couple trucks each year, until you find the breaking point, then back it back down.
I was on it for the 18 hour record, we were all tired at the end, but yes, I think everyone did have a good time.

 

[6872xtc]

I always like the different views around here and I think quite often it is a "to each his own" scenario. I enjoyed meeting everyone and watching what others had built and how they used it. It was awesome watching rigs cross the crack in the dark with various lights around from all the rigs. It would be something that i would have set out to do for the fun of it if I had been over the trail a few times. Seeing the sun go down while out on the trail was incredible!!
After all the years I spent working for a heavy wrecker service, I was somewhat of the mindset that we were not in a good situation at first, but I was used to taking one truck where ever to rescue one truck in ALL kinds of conditions. I figured out that this was not the case here and not a huge problem so enjoy! I still thought it was incredible for Stephen and James to come out to make sure we all got in!!!
Yes I would like to try it in something similar to 'Wally' but that doesn't diminish my memories of BB12.
Thanks go out to Keith and everyone involved. I hope to see everyone again.

 

[bp71k5]

My plan for next time is to just do one of those trails per day and really enjoy the scenery of each one. That way if I choose to do the trifecta again (I had a great time so I'm sure I will), I'll enjoy the challenge of getting through it without stopping so much. I still feel like I cheated a bit by having James as a passenger but that was also likely to be a contributing factor in me making it out before dark. I don't know how reasonable it is to have some kind of "experienced trifecta wheeler co-pilot" rental program for newbies, but having an experienced co-pilot helping make sure you don't do something stupid (at least without knowing about it before hand ) was invaluable to me and I bet it would be to others.

Maybe have the most damaging runs (pritchet) on the first day so that when the broken trucks are disabled, those drivers can get some wheeling in by renting themselves out as a co-pilot for the trifecta on Sunday.

Just my two cents.

 

[mrk5]

Beer isn't that the answer to all of life's questions?

Edit
While I do agree with your thoughts Keith I have to say that I prefer to "get it done" and do more trails faster than one or two slower. I also like a 5:00 or 6:00 cocktail hour at camp. It's just my style and your right the bulk of the ones whining weren't there, I wasn't even able to attend so really I don't have a say about this years run.

Scott is the only one that ultimately has a say in how this event happens and goes down. I know that he didn't get in with my brother and dad at midnight to go up there just cause he could, he did that because there was an issue and it's his event. If he's fine with this trail taking until all hours of the day that's fine but I think he is seeing that in short order there won't be the support staff to do that. I would be willing to try it one, more, time as the leader my rules, my speed and discretion, unfortunately I don't think anyone would want to do it again with me which defeats the purpose for Scott. I also wouldn't want to be the perpetual leader for that trail.

Yeah that's basically my goal with moving forward; eliminate the need for a 1am rescue run.

The fact that everyone had a great experience and will look back on the event with fond memories is what motivates me to do it each year. I just want to have that fun without imposing too much on someone else.

And I want to be sure to say that no one has ever complained to me about making a rescue run. That being said I also don't want to take advantage.

I do have to say it was quite inspiring to see Stephen & James working together getting prepared and then in action on the trail. They have obviously done this type of things a lot.

 

[mrk5]

I also don't think it was anyone's fault that was on the Trifecta this year either and I'm not looking to lay any blame on anyone. It was a series of bad circumstances. I just didn't have a good plan setup for how to deal with the scenario. Heck it was just an after thought that I even gave my cell number to Shawn the day before. I want to make sure we can provide the support needed in the future and this has made me think about all the trail runs. Discussion like this gives me good ideas on how to handle next year's event.