'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build

[folkenheath]

You going to weld the centers in, bolt them in, or both?

You could make a rig from an old axle and use it to keep the wheel straight or even straighten it if you weld a metal caster to a large threaded rod and then attach it to the axle tube.

 

[Greg72]

You going to weld the centers in, bolt them in, or both?

BOTH. I'll probably set my backspacing where I want it... then put a couple small tack welds to hold it in place. Spin the wheel with a dial indicator to see how bad the lateral runout is and if it's OK (what IS acceptable runout for a steel wheel anyway?) I'll burn it in. Then, go back and replace those rivet hole locations with some Gr-8 bolts, torque them down hard and proabably even weld the heads/nuts so that they can't loosen up over time.

You could make a rig from an old axle and use it to keep the wheel straight or even straighten it if you weld a metal caster to a large threaded rod and then attach it to the axle tube.

HUH?




-G

 

[y5mgisi]

Really can't wait to see how that turnsout.

 

[y5mgisi]

Heath means you could mount the wheel ontoaan axle and spin it. The caster would push on the edge of the rim to keep it straight.

 

[max 02]

The hoops are spec'ed as 17" x 9". The outside flange-to-flange measurement is 9.75"

The H2's are spec'ed as a 17" x 8.5". The outside flange-to-flange measurement is also 9.75".... though the mounting lip profile is thicker (due to being aluminum, I believe) so the actual seat area where the tire sits IS actually smaller than the new steel wheels.


-G

Nice! Even with the back spacing you need they should still look deep!

 

[folkenheath]

BOTH.... and probably even weld the heads/nuts so that they can't loosen up over time.



HUH?




-G

Welding the inside of the bolt head is a good plan, then it can't leak air out either. You running internal beadlocks?

And I just meant, if you need a fixture/jig to weld them, or straighten them, you could use an old axle, or even half of one with the spindle and bearings/hub on it. Then weld a jig to the tube (with a caster and adjustable threaded rod if you want) to straight the wheel as you rotate it. It could potentially be used to straighten the wheel if it warps after welding. But you want want to run an indicator on the hub first because if you start with a bent hub you would end with a bent wheel. Or it's too much work and you don't need it so nevermind.

 

[Greg72]

Nice! Even with the back spacing you need they should still look deep!

We'll see.... it's going to be a tight fit in there, the Ford calipers are pretty massive so I don't get to go as deep as I may want.... I'll have interferences up front with the steering arms too if I get too aggressive. As a failsafe, I always can play around with the thickness of the aluminum wheel spacer that came with the 8-lug conversion kit. It started out as a 1" thick spacer, but I machined it down to 3/8" for the H2 wheels once I figured out the clearances.

I want to keep things tucked-in as tight as possible.... that will reduce the amount of "swing" that the front tires do, and ultimately will let me keep the fender openings as small as possible and still have clearance.

Welding the inside of the bolt head is a good plan, then it can't leak air out either. You running internal beadlocks?

And I just meant, if you need a fixture/jig to weld them, or straighten them, you could use an old axle, or even half of one with the spindle and bearings/hub on it. Then weld a jig to the tube (with a caster and adjustable threaded rod if you want) to straight the wheel as you rotate it. It could potentially be used to straighten the wheel if it warps after welding. But you want want to run an indicator on the hub first because if you start with a bent hub you would end with a bent wheel. Or it's too much work and you don't need it so nevermind.

I've got a set of Staun internal beadlocks, but I was considering not even bothering with them. Having CTIS is probably just about as good since I can air-down as much as needed for a given obstacle, then air-up immediately so I don't risk blowing a bead by running super low pressures all the time....... still thinking on that one.

The caster wheel fixture is a good idea. I'll probably play around with that.... given that it's always in contact with the wheel rim, it will help insure that nothing slips out of alignment during the welding process.

Next step is to figure out the best way to close that .080" gap between the center and the hoop. I could use the bolts to draw-down the flanges tight, but I may end up distorting the metal too much and won't get a nice flat contact surface anymore.... I was also thinking about welding up the thickness of the flanges with my MIG and then having them milled-down to match the hoops.



-G

 

[jekquistk5]

We'll see.... it's going to be a tight fit in there, the Ford calipers are pretty massive so I don't get to go as deep as I may want.... I'll have interferences up front with the steering arms too if I get too aggressive. As a failsafe, I always can play around with the thickness of the aluminum wheel spacer that came with the 8-lug conversion kit. It started out as a 1" thick spacer, but I machined it down to 3/8" for the H2 wheels once I figured out the clearances.

I want to keep things tucked-in as tight as possible.... that will reduce the amount of "swing" that the front tires do, and ultimately will let me keep the fender openings as small as possible and still have clearance.




I've got a set of Staun internal beadlocks, but I was considering not even bothering with them. Having CTIS is probably just about as good since I can air-down as much as needed for a given obstacle, then air-up immediately so I don't risk blowing a bead by running super low pressures all the time....... still thinking on that one.

The caster wheel fixture is a good idea. I'll probably play around with that.... given that it's always in contact with the wheel rim, it will help insure that nothing slips out of alignment during the welding process.

Next step is to figure out the best way to close that .080" gap between the center and the hoop. I could use the bolts to draw-down the flanges tight, but I may end up distorting the metal too much and won't get a nice flat contact surface anymore.... I was also thinking about welding up the thickness of the flanges with my MIG and then having them milled-down to match the hoops.



-G

Assuming the wheel is perfectly round you could always quickly rig up a Cross with 4 caster or even just two caster. 4 would help the margin of error.

 

[BARRAZA]

.... I was also thinking about welding up the thickness of the flanges with my MIG and then having them milled-down to match the hoops.



-G

WOW
You just saved me a ton of time. I was in the beginning stages of the exact same idea, ie 17 steelies that will take factory hubcaps. Ironically, I was wanting to replace my H2 alloys also.

I think the best way is to add weld material to the centers like you mention, then have them turned down to an interference fit. Press them in where you want them and get a pro (a wheel manufacturer) to weld them up. The welding operation is pretty critical if you want smooth running wheels. Manufacturers automatically weld opposite sides while the wheel is turning.

 

[Greg72]

WOW
You just saved me a ton of time. I was in the beginning stages of the exact same idea, ie 17 steelies that will take factory hubcaps. Ironically, I was wanting to replace my H2 alloys also.

I think the best way is to add weld material to the centers like you mention, then have them turned down to an interference fit. Press them in where you want them and get a pro (a wheel manufacturer) to weld them up. The welding operation is pretty critical if you want smooth running wheels. Manufacturers automatically weld opposite sides while the wheel is turning.

Any idea what qualifies as an "interference fit"?

I was guess maybe a few thousandths maximum would be enough.... Basically tight enough that you would have to heat the hoop with a torch slightly to expand it....the center would drop down into place. As it cooled (assuming the fit wasn't too tight) there wouldn't be any distortion of the parts.... Just a nice tight fit that is ready for the welding and bolting processes.

Paging Rob!! ...


-G

 

[BARRAZA]

Any idea what qualifies as an "interference fit"?

I was guess maybe a few thousandths maximum would be enough.... Basically tight enough that you would have to heat the hoop with a torch slightly to expand it....the center would drop down into place. As it cooled (assuming the fit wasn't too tight) there wouldn't be any distortion of the parts.... Just a nice tight fit that is ready for the welding and bolting processes.

Paging Rob!! ...


-G

Not sure on a number, but it is surely more than a few thousandths for a center over 14 inches dia. Still fairly easy to manage with heat.

Have you talked to any of the steel wheel builders like Wheel Vintiques?

 

[Greg72]

I talked to a lot of vendors when I was looking for the hoops themselves.... But back then I was only looking for hard parts, not services like welding, widening, etc.

On the East Coast, I'm not sure who I could go to for those types of service most of the places I've found are all out west..... So I get to pay for shipping at least TWO more times to get this process finished!

-G

 

[tRustyK5]

I don't see why you couldn't do this yourself Greg. 4 holes 90 degrees apart on a shell. 4 pieces of .040" shim stock 1" wide and however long each section with three holes is. Bolt one center into one shell with four bolts, mount it up on your spindle jig and check run-out and true. Tack it in when it looks good, drill remaining holes. Fully bolt it, then burn in each section in a cross pattern.

This is not harder than a H1 re-center/weld...and your rims are never gonna be spinning any faster than any H1 rim that's been re-centered.

Don't let this project intimidate you. You have the skills and the tools and the brains to pull this off.

 

[BARRAZA]

I'm not saying it couldn't be done at home. Welding the beads to increase the size of the center wouldn't actually be hard at all. A local machine shop could turn it down to the size you spec. Heat it up and press the center in the hoop and start welding with frequent alignment checks.

Try one, what have you got to lose?

The other way is what I had been pondering, are there any 17" wheels that could have nubs added to retain the hubcaps?

 

[tRustyK5]

For a lousy .040" I'd just use shim stock and leave it in there forever. The shim stock isn't compressible and it isn't ever gonna go anywhere bolted and welded.

These aren't rims for the landing gear of the shuttle. They're gonna see no more than ~600 rpm at freeway speeds...with 10.5" rubber sidewalls.

I'd aim for run-out/true in the .060" or less range and burn em in.

 

[Greg72]

If you carefully bead blast a stock wheel you will see that those nubs are actually brazed onto the pressed center somehow. I think the bump is too big to be formed by the stamping process....

Personally, I think that the 4 shallow windows in the stock wheel are important visually too. Using an aftermarket steelie with different holes would still be a "miss".... Even though the hubcap covers most of the wheel..... IMHO.

-G


Rene,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate that.

 

[tRustyK5]

I just believe this is being "over-thunk". Good to examine every angle, but equally important to understand there is room for a certain amount of error in these as well. I would wager most all stamped steel factory rims have a certain amount of run-out/truing error from day one that you just don't notice or feel. Tires have a certain amount of error as well, as I'm sure you remember from when you had your Swampers trued up by having them shaved.

If it was all perfect all the time nobody would ever need balance weights. Fit em up, get em as close as you can and they'll be just fine IMO.

 

[Greg72]

True.

There is awfully large sidewall absorbing any ugliness from the wheel runout/hop. It will probably be far more forgiving than a stock sized tire would have ever been.

.060" runout is what, 1/16" ? I can probably get there with shims and careful planning, clamping and weld sequencing...

BTW... Here's a close up of one of the hubcap retainers for reference:




-G

 

[BARRAZA]

True.

There is awfully large sidewall absorbing any ugliness from the wheel runout/hop. It will probably be far more forgiving than a stock sized tire would have ever been.

.060" runout is what, 1/16" ? I can probably get there with shims and careful planning, clamping and weld sequencing...

BTW... Here's a close up of one of the hubcap retainers for reference:




-G

That large sidewall isn't absorbing the runout, it is magnifying it. An interesting article attached.

http://www.barrystiretech.com/unifandbal.html

Lots of different numbers floating around for runout specs, but .030-.040 is mentioned often. Note that is TOTAL runnout.

I agree it can be overthought, and you will never know how close you can get it without trying. But I have rolled around on enough bouncy tires/wheels to know that you will cuss the whole vehicle if it rides like crap.

Interesting fact about those hubcap retainers.

 

[Greg72]

I have a local friend who can true up the wheel centers for me, so I think for my "experiment" I will weld the 4 flanges to make them a bit thicker, then have him turn them back down to match the hoop. It might make sense to check the hoop as well to make sure that there is no runout there either.

Any quesses as to how much larger the center should be than the hoop to get a good interference fit?

You had mentioned that a "few thousandths" across a 14+" wheel center is probably not enough..... maybe .010"??? .020"???





-G