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77K5. The IronMaiden...9/2 headed for Blazer Bash 20!
- Thread starter 76zimmer
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- 14bff bearing desintigrated 454 cookies custom diy4x aluminum fuel tank diy4x flatback dif covers diy4x frame boxing kit diy4x wraptor/truss ez-efi fords suck hemi orange and school bus yellow index l&l headers long/dana coolers making me her bitch. more tranny problems one tons phoenix trans convertor th400 full manual
jack of all trades build, overland, dunes, rocks, trails
FAST makes EZ-EFI Zim, so both! XFI is FASTs version of a fully programmable MPFI. But the EZ-EFI self learning computer will control 8 MPFI injectors if you get that kit instead, its just more expensive.
chulisohombre
1/2 ton status
Yeah I saw that in the petersons section on new sema show stuff. Looked to be pretty nice.
I'm thinking a programmable ignition curve would be nice(although it must be very simple for me to do) along with EFI...might as well wire and tune them both in at the same time?
Zim,
Some of the newest Holley systems offer both fuel and ignition timing programming together. I am still expecting to use their Dominator system to get both of those PLUS all the controls for my 4L80E.... Shift points, firmness, etc.
I like the idea that you can integrate all those maps into a single controller and share all the sensor data to really fine tune the interrelationship between the fuel, the timing curve and the way the transmission behaves.
-G
Zim, you have several options to do that.
If you want to stick with simple self tuning systems I would suggest EZ-EFI along with an MSD Digital Programmable 6AL-2. The EZ-EFI doesn't require a different intake (although if you have a standard performer you should get a different one anyway!). The EZ-EFI is self tuning and you can fully program your ignition timing with that MSD ignition box. The pogrammable MSD box is about $360, and the EZ-EFI is about $2k.
The next step up would be the EZ-EFI multi port kits. They use the simple self tuning EFI brain but use a multi port 8 injector intake. Those probably run about $3k, and you would need the MSD box to control timing.
Then there is fully programmable EFI with timing and everything. FAST XFI does have the self learning feature of the EZ-EI built in now. And controls timing and everything, and can be used with boost, nitrous, etc. The FAST box will not control a trans, but that doens't matter to you. The ful out FAST system is probabyl around $4k, I would just use a standard 6A ignitino box with that system, because the system will control the spark just like the programmable MSD box would, but it's all built in.
Now if you want the ultimate in control and technology, then look at Big Stuff 3. Meaney is the founder of digital fuel injection (he is the one that developed the base systems for Accel, FAST, Holley, etc) and currently has the most capable controller on the planet. It can control multiple injectors, (up to 24), transmission, 2 fuel pumps, 2 fan stages, nitrous stages, as well as built in coil pack drivers for newer LS style and other multiple coil systems and other stuff I'm not mentioning for boost, etc. Did you know they are actually misfiring the engines on purpose at the tree so the combustion is late in the exhaust cycle and helps spool up the turbo very rapidly? Sounds horrible but the turbo spools up very quickly and then they shut it off as soon as the trans brake is released and immediately return to a properly timed engine. No other single controller box can controll all of that at once, including injectors, timing, coil packs, and transmissions. Meaney lives in MI about 20 minutes from my previous house up there.
http://bigstuff3.com/
So you need to decide, do you want simple EZ-EFI or fully programmable or somewhere in between. All of these setups will require you lockout the distributor. Nothing wrong with a standard HEI coil unless you start getting up to 135 mJ and 530V at the primary coil or so. Once you get there you start burning up the internal HEI coils and an external coil is more relaible.
Now, yes, the atomic EFI from MSD will control the timing, but I would rather have the EZ-EFIs high pressure return style fuel system with the injectors under the throttle blades and a seperate programmable ignition box for the timing than the atomic EFI with the injectors above the throttle plates like old fashioned GM TBI.
On my truck I don't even have programmable ignition. It works perfectly. The most gain is from the closed loop fuel control of the EFI. Once the timing is set it never changes anyway, it's not like the closed loop where if the fuel is off because of altitude or temperature that it self corrects. When the timing curve is set, it stays that way, even with EFI. Unless you implement a knock sensor, which most aftermarket EFIs don't use, but they are optional. My ignition is an old MSD 6A with a stock HEI coil. I did upgrade the little bushing above the rotor and the plug wires to MSD superconductors though. That makes darn sure all the energy is getting to the plug. The stock bushing has about 10,000 ohms, and the MSD bushing is approaching zero ohms. Also, the superconductor wires have less than 50 ohms/ft of resistance while still being EMI suppressive wires. standard wires are usually 700 - 900 ohms/ft. That means most super conductor wires are 100 - 200 ohms, where most other wires are over 2000 ohms each. I really like MSD ignition products.
All the programmable ignitions, whether it be MSD box or EFI, will require you to lockout the dizzy and phase it so it is in sync with the computer. Simple to do, I can tell you how over the phone if you need.
EDIT: It looks like Holley caught up in the coil driver department and can now control the coil packs, injectors, and tranny as well in their dominator ECU. Haven't read there user manual to see the tranny controller interface though and how they interact with everything else such as nitrous, boost, misfires, trans brakes, etc. Although none of that matters for you, including the coil packs or tranny.
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My primary objective would be to not have the engine stumble, die, flood, starve, idle issues, etc....the carb seems very responsive under most conditions except those I've listed before....still not dead sure if its ignition or carb, but the problems started in Moab when at an extreme angle climb, and it was carb related then, and has blossomed into bigger issues since...some perhaps caused by me trying to tune in a wrong direction.
So with that goal in mind a injector setup that is above the throttle blades would be fine...I'm not looking for drag race performance...I'm very happy with the engine's power level, and as mentioned its no lightweight so accelleration isn't the big goal here....a broad torque curve is, and that it has. Leaving a few hp on the table isn't a concern when your in the rocks, and thats where it really needs help.
The MSD system would fit my truck best right now as it would be the simplest to hook up with my present fuel system of only a single .430 id fuel supply line to the carb. No return line, and a mechanical pump on the block. I would only have to make a new line from the existing fuel filter @ the carb to the new FI unit.
The FAST EZ EFI system, I would probably use the complete system with pump and lines...best price I've found on that is $2179...about the same as the Atomic MSD without the pump and lines. The FAST system would require additional fuel tank mods as well (which I may do some mods anyway)
Anything above those 2 don't interest me much, mostly because of the cost. I need reliability and stumble free performance from the system.
The HEI I have now is a Pro-Form new unit...that could use some tuning for optimal results from it as well. I put it in, set the timing at 10* and run it....haven't taken the time to play with weights and springs to get the most out of it.
That's why I was thinking a mappable ign curve would be nice...but if its another 350-400 frog skins I'll play with the HEI I have already.
Oh and did I mention, new 42's????
So with that goal in mind a injector setup that is above the throttle blades would be fine...I'm not looking for drag race performance...I'm very happy with the engine's power level, and as mentioned its no lightweight so accelleration isn't the big goal here....a broad torque curve is, and that it has. Leaving a few hp on the table isn't a concern when your in the rocks, and thats where it really needs help.
The MSD system would fit my truck best right now as it would be the simplest to hook up with my present fuel system of only a single .430 id fuel supply line to the carb. No return line, and a mechanical pump on the block. I would only have to make a new line from the existing fuel filter @ the carb to the new FI unit.
The FAST EZ EFI system, I would probably use the complete system with pump and lines...best price I've found on that is $2179...about the same as the Atomic MSD without the pump and lines. The FAST system would require additional fuel tank mods as well (which I may do some mods anyway)
Anything above those 2 don't interest me much, mostly because of the cost. I need reliability and stumble free performance from the system.
The HEI I have now is a Pro-Form new unit...that could use some tuning for optimal results from it as well. I put it in, set the timing at 10* and run it....haven't taken the time to play with weights and springs to get the most out of it.
That's why I was thinking a mappable ign curve would be nice...but if its another 350-400 frog skins I'll play with the HEI I have already.
Oh and did I mention, new 42's????
Ok I need to go back and read the last posts but I did see new 42's!!!
Are the 42s the tires im supposed to go look at? Sounds badass
Well personally I would never run the returnless fuel system of the atomic unit with a high pressure EFI system, and I don't like the venturis of the atomic unit(they put the injector over the throttle blades and limit flow), and I don't like the fact that the ECM is on the engine (part of the TB). Also, the injectors don't actually injector into the intake, they inject through a channel into the venturi and out venturi, which is not optimal for an injector.
Also, I have read that there is a checklist for the returnless system, and if you have over 400 hp, drive in weather over 80 degrees, etc, that they suggest you run a return line anyway, which shows you the system has limitations.
With the EZ-EFI you have many more options, the computer is seperate so it can be in the cab or on the firewall. The injectors are under the throttle plates with a wide open 1000 cfm TB injecting directly into the intake manifold. And the fuel system is nothing special, a proven high pressure return system. Also, if you ever change your mind and decide you want to get a different intake, with just a wire harness change you can be running MPFI with 8 injectors using the same computer and fuel system, or get a different fuel system and be running 1200 hp with the same computer.
Granted the EZ doesn't have timing control, but since I've recurved my distributor I never touch it anyway, and if it really bothered me I could get a programmable box for $360, but I haven't found the need for it. The stock dizzy can be recurved in a half hour or so without even taking it out of the truck by changing the springs and adjusting or modifying the vacuum can.
For me its a no brainer, EZ-EFI is better, along with a nice MSD 6A box for ignition and to supply a clean RPM signal to the EFI computer, which isn't necessary, but I think its a plus. I mean, look at this TB, wide open flow!
Also, I have read that there is a checklist for the returnless system, and if you have over 400 hp, drive in weather over 80 degrees, etc, that they suggest you run a return line anyway, which shows you the system has limitations.
With the EZ-EFI you have many more options, the computer is seperate so it can be in the cab or on the firewall. The injectors are under the throttle plates with a wide open 1000 cfm TB injecting directly into the intake manifold. And the fuel system is nothing special, a proven high pressure return system. Also, if you ever change your mind and decide you want to get a different intake, with just a wire harness change you can be running MPFI with 8 injectors using the same computer and fuel system, or get a different fuel system and be running 1200 hp with the same computer.
Granted the EZ doesn't have timing control, but since I've recurved my distributor I never touch it anyway, and if it really bothered me I could get a programmable box for $360, but I haven't found the need for it. The stock dizzy can be recurved in a half hour or so without even taking it out of the truck by changing the springs and adjusting or modifying the vacuum can.
For me its a no brainer, EZ-EFI is better, along with a nice MSD 6A box for ignition and to supply a clean RPM signal to the EFI computer, which isn't necessary, but I think its a plus. I mean, look at this TB, wide open flow!
Are the 42s the tires im supposed to go look at? Sounds badass
Yeah, they were pretty beat up already....thats a scratch on that one..
Well personally I would never run the returnless fuel system of the atomic unit with a high pressure EFI system, and I don't like the venturis of the atomic unit(they put the injector over the throttle blades and limit flow), and I don't like the fact that the ECM is on the engine (part of the TB). Also, the injectors don't actually injector into the intake, they inject through a channel into the venturi and out venturi, which is not optimal for an injector.
Also, I have read that there is a checklist for the returnless system, and if you have over 400 hp, drive in weather over 80 degrees, etc, that they suggest you run a return line anyway, which shows you the system has limitations.
With the EZ-EFI you have many more options, the computer is seperate so it can be in the cab or on the firewall. The injectors are under the throttle plates with a wide open 1000 cfm TB injecting directly into the intake manifold. And the fuel system is nothing special, a proven high pressure return system. Also, if you ever change your mind and decide you want to get a different intake, with just a wire harness change you can be running MPFI with 8 injectors using the same computer and fuel system, or get a different fuel system and be running 1200 hp with the same computer.
Granted the EZ doesn't have timing control, but since I've recurved my distributor I never touch it anyway, and if it really bothered me I could get a programmable box for $360, but I haven't found the need for it. The stock dizzy can be recurved in a half hour or so without even taking it out of the truck by changing the springs and adjusting or modifying the vacuum can.
For me its a no brainer, EZ-EFI is better, along with a nice MSD 6A box for ignition and to supply a clean RPM signal to the EFI computer, which isn't necessary, but I think its a plus. I mean, look at this TB, wide open flow!
Well Heath you know how I am with electronics, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this more and more...a NEW set of tires will have to wait, I'm putting my into FI next year. I don't need the tires right away, I can put my TSL's on the beadlocks for now.
Pretty sure I'll pull the trigger on the FAST EZ system now after looking over the EZ-EFI threads out there, but a few questions come up for my application:
1) get the EZ-EFI kit 30226, comes without fuel pump and lines; from Altantic Speed.
Sounds like the Fragola lines/fittings are a PITA and I've had realtive ease of assembly and no durability problems with the Gates 300* pushloc hose (250psi) and jegs fittings for the rest of my fluid lines, I'll use them.
2) get a stock FI tank with the pump pickup baffling
how well does this pump well/baffling with a stock pickup work on extreme angles for prolonged use?
3) use the Walbro 255 pump in place of the stock FI pump on a stock sending unit.
does the stock FI pickup supply enough fuel for a healthy BB running through the gears? I understand the supplied line is 3/8..-6an?
4) I will plan on using my stock HEI with the tach filter for a pickup signal, has
anyone used this setup?
5) I hear direct to battery is best for the negative...my battery is rear mounted with
a 0ga. cable coming from the battery up to the engine compartment, I would think
the connection made to this cable would be sufficient?
6) I've seen throttle linkage issues on some installs, is this typical of our trucks as
a whole, or just certain years? My 77 has the factory acc. cable type.
7) A drop air cleaner isn't compatible with the EZ unit?
1) get the EZ-EFI kit 30226, comes without fuel pump and lines; from Altantic Speed.
Sounds like the Fragola lines/fittings are a PITA and I've had realtive ease of assembly and no durability problems with the Gates 300* pushloc hose (250psi) and jegs fittings for the rest of my fluid lines, I'll use them.
2) get a stock FI tank with the pump pickup baffling
how well does this pump well/baffling with a stock pickup work on extreme angles for prolonged use?
3) use the Walbro 255 pump in place of the stock FI pump on a stock sending unit.
does the stock FI pickup supply enough fuel for a healthy BB running through the gears? I understand the supplied line is 3/8..-6an?
4) I will plan on using my stock HEI with the tach filter for a pickup signal, has
anyone used this setup?
5) I hear direct to battery is best for the negative...my battery is rear mounted with
a 0ga. cable coming from the battery up to the engine compartment, I would think
the connection made to this cable would be sufficient?
6) I've seen throttle linkage issues on some installs, is this typical of our trucks as
a whole, or just certain years? My 77 has the factory acc. cable type.
7) A drop air cleaner isn't compatible with the EZ unit?
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not sure on the drop air cleaner, I thought it worked fine but I might be remembering a carb swap and not the EFI swap. But our trucks have plenty of room for a flat base aircleaner anyway, even with a big block. My air cleaner has a slight rise to it, with a 4" element, and its fine.
from Chevy305's rig it looks like he is running a drop base...
So playing devils advocate here for a second.
How much could you get a 6.0 for. They really aren't that hard to put in and I have a buddy that does wiring harnesses for not a bad price where it would be a plug and play kind of deal on the electronics.
You would have to mess with the fuel system, but I personally think that would be a better motor in the maiden.
Well what would you do with the motor in the maiden?
Put it in Bart. It was built for torque and while the motor in bart is certainly strong, it does consume oil.
Just trying to throw some wrenches in your works Zim
The 6.0 can go over 400 hp easy. Just depends on how much you can find one for in a wrecking yard and how many miles etc it has on it, that will decide the overall cost. And it may well end up costing more than fuel injection on the big block. But I kind of think not
How much could you get a 6.0 for. They really aren't that hard to put in and I have a buddy that does wiring harnesses for not a bad price where it would be a plug and play kind of deal on the electronics.
You would have to mess with the fuel system, but I personally think that would be a better motor in the maiden.
Well what would you do with the motor in the maiden?
Put it in Bart. It was built for torque and while the motor in bart is certainly strong, it does consume oil.
Just trying to throw some wrenches in your works Zim
The 6.0 can go over 400 hp easy. Just depends on how much you can find one for in a wrecking yard and how many miles etc it has on it, that will decide the overall cost. And it may well end up costing more than fuel injection on the big block. But I kind of think not
And oh yah the stock fuel tank baffles work pretty darn good. I have been at some pretty extreme angles. Enough my oil pressure has gone to zero and the motor was still running.
It was only about 6" difference to where I was sitting and had oil pressure to where I got to and had no oil pressure, they pulled me back down a couple inches with the winches and Horton sat there and ran for 15 minutes without missing a beat.
I had about half a tank
It was only about 6" difference to where I was sitting and had oil pressure to where I got to and had no oil pressure, they pulled me back down a couple inches with the winches and Horton sat there and ran for 15 minutes without missing a beat.
I had about half a tank
Good to hear on the baffles Eric, I almost said ask you because I am sure you've had it at more extreme angles! No offense of course!
It actually sounds like it works too good, I'd rather lose fuel pressure before oil pressure.
As for the 6.0, are you smoking crack? You want him to downgrade from a fresh big block to a small block? A 6.0 at 400 hp won't have as much torque as that BB at 400 hp, and that big block most likely has more than 400 hp, especially if he gets an RPM intake.
Also, look at it this way, you want him to put his carbed big block in the tow rig, and then swap a stock small black in his wheelin' rig? huh?
It actually sounds like it works too good, I'd rather lose fuel pressure before oil pressure.
As for the 6.0, are you smoking crack? You want him to downgrade from a fresh big block to a small block? A 6.0 at 400 hp won't have as much torque as that BB at 400 hp, and that big block most likely has more than 400 hp, especially if he gets an RPM intake.
Also, look at it this way, you want him to put his carbed big block in the tow rig, and then swap a stock small black in his wheelin' rig? huh?
Best thing I ever did to my rig is make it lighter, thats the reason I almost always will favor a smaller motor. The 6.0 is plenty capable of making great power. Obviously a big block will have more grunt. But a 6.0 will rev higher and still make great power.
I really just wanted to throw it out there as another consideration, I realize conventional car guy wisdom says going from a big block to just about anything else is nothing short of sacrilege. But losing weight in an off road rig becomes very important the harder stuff you try. I realize you guys have different wheeling out there for sure, when crawling the only thing a big block does better than my small block is sound better
I was pretty happy to sell my mild built 454 so I can swap to a 6.0 or 5.3.
