Ultimate cooling set up

[Chris Ziemer]

Well, that sounds like good news. Just to be clear though I don’t have EFI. I’m carbureted. Regardless, I went ahead and ordered this very expensive gauge and a high flow Edelbrock thermostat to make sure I know what my temperature is at the intake. I’ll install it on the intake where my fan sensor is now and then I’ll move my fan sensor to the thermostat housing.
I’m still gonna get all my tune options checked out, there may be something there that’s also an issue. But at least I’ll have a mechanical, reliable temp.

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[tarussell]

Not intending to harp but I feel strongly that your extreme poor power problem ( and very possibly tied in with your temperature issues ) needs to be addressed FIRST !

Just don’t want ya’ to chase other issues down that have developed by something else - start with getting and verifying the motor status is good FIRST !

I’ve done the due diligence and just don’t want ya’ to overlook or dismiss what has already been mentioned - re read this post below by BLUE85; he’s pretty sharp and sees a potential problem in this area as well.

The all caps for the words “first” were meant to draw your attention and not to be a smartass.
There are a lot of very experienced and very sharp mechanically inclined folks , along with many old professional wrench turners , here and I believe that everyone of them would agree to GET THE MOTOR RIGHT BEFORE you continue chasing down this temp issue.

You’ve described extremely poor power performance to the point of having issues just pulling onto the freeway - timing issues need to be addressed.
There are more than too far advanced and pinging timing problems - you could be a tooth off and running very retarded which would cause the conditions you’ve described.

Hope this helps - I won’t bring it up again and continue to harp on it… Tom

 

[Chris Ziemer]

Not intending to harp but I feel strongly that your extreme poor power problem ( and very possibly tied in with your temperature issues ) needs to be addressed FIRST !

Just don’t want ya’ to chase other issues down that have developed by something else - start with getting and verifying the motor status is good FIRST !

I’ve done the due diligence and just don’t want ya’ to overlook or dismiss what has already been mentioned - re read this post below by BLUE85; he’s pretty sharp and sees a potential problem in this area as well.

The all caps for the words “first” were meant to draw your attention and not to be a smartass.
There are a lot of very experienced and very sharp mechanically inclined folks , along with many old professional wrench turners , here and I believe that everyone of them would agree to GET THE MOTOR RIGHT BEFORE you continue chasing down this temp issue.

You’ve described extremely poor power performance to the point of having issues just pulling onto the freeway - timing issues need to be addressed.
There are more than too far advanced and pinging timing problems - you could be a tooth off and running very retarded which would cause the conditions you’ve described.

Hope this helps - I won’t bring it up again and continue to harp on it… Tom

View attachment 528900

Thanks Tom, the way I phrased that may have been a little misleading. I’m getting a temperature gauge, just so I have an accurate reading of what the temperature is. I’m not expecting it to fix any problems even if the temperature is lower than the dash, which it probably will be. And the thermostat, just because I’ll have the housing off already to put my dual port housing back on instead of the no port one I have on there now.

I have a list of issues written down to bring to my mechanic. In fact, I’m gonna go to a different mechanic to get a fresh set of eyes.
It’s hard to know when I’m the only one driving it and you know, you get what you get sometimes. It’s slow seems to underperform, doesn’t act like any V8 I’ve ever owned but, I’ve never owned a four-wheel-drive with low gears, lifted with bigger tires so...

I really am a 2 WD guy stuck in a four-wheel-drive body. At least that’s what I tell my wife.

But I can see from the post that it’s likely there’s some kind of performance issue that needs to be addressed, in the form of the many things that were brought up.
So please don’t feel like you’re harping, I don’t take it like that at all. I super respect your guys’s opinions and feedback and it’s what I love about this site. I’m an OK parts replacer but I’m no mechanic.

And 60% of the time, I follow advice every time.

 

[folkenheath]

To answer the poll question, IMO the best spot to put the temp sender is in the intake manifold between the thermostat and the heads. Not on top the thermostat, because if it is closed it may not be seeing actual temp.

In the front of the head is fine too, I don't like the back of the head as much because the water heats more traveling through the head. So usually the heads are symmetrical so one side the temp port is more forward than the other side. But then the intake is completely after the head on the exit of the engine but before the thermostat, even better. Plus its not right by the hot exhaust flange.

As for the best cooling setup, I agree with the guys, the engine and water pump have to be in proper working order first, you can't easily cool an engine that is plugged up or not running right or the timing is way off or it's super lean, etc. I like Edelbrock water pumps for reliability, flow, and weight savings.

After that, I believe I have made the best cooling setup available. It's a dual 1.25" core aluminum radiator, in the diesel size, even wider than a big block radiator, and I put dual 16" SPAL fans with it, not dual 12 or 14, but the larger fans, 16-17" OD, they will only fit on the diesel size core. And the dual 1.25" aluminum is better than a 5 core brass would be for cooling capacity. I found one that fits.

I've tested fans for flow, free flow and through a radiator, SPAL is consistently higher flow than many others of the same size, but they also sell many different flow ratings for the same size fan. You want the billy bad boy model. I get them through my distributor.

Also, separate trans cooler, especially in warm climates. I use a huge derale unit.

The fan shroud I designed to work with this radiator and was made by @mrk5. It works great.

Also, two relays, one for each fan, 40A each relay.

 

[Cucv_M1008]

I'm running a Tejas Fab Fan shroud and Spal 1200 CFM fans, it cools great.

 

[Chris Ziemer]

To answer the poll question, IMO the best spot to put the temp sender is in the intake manifold between the thermostat and the heads. Not on top the thermostat, because if it is closed it may not be seeing actual temp.

In the front of the head is fine too, I don't like the back of the head as much because the water heats more traveling through the head. So usually the heads are symmetrical so one side the temp port is more forward than the other side. But then the intake is completely after the head on the exit of the engine but before the thermostat, even better.

As for the best cooling setup, I agree with the guys, the engine and water pump have to be in proper working order first, you can't easily cool an engine that is plugged up or not running right or the timing is way off or it's super lean, etc. I like Edelbrock water pumps for reliability, flow, and weight savings.

After that, I believe I have made the best cooling setup available. It's a dual 1.25" core aluminum radiator, in the diesel size, even wider than a big block radiator, and I put dual 16" SPAL fans with it, not dual 12 or 14, but the larger fans, 16-17" OD, they will only fit on the diesel size core. And the dual 1.25" aluminum is better than a 5 core brass would be for cooling capacity. I found one that fits.

I've tested fans for flow, free flow and through a radiator, SPAL is consistently higher flow than many others of the same size, but they also sell many different flow ratings for the same size fan. You want the billy bad boy model. I get them through my distributor.

Also, separate trans cooler, especially in warm climates. I use a huge derale unit.

The fan shroud I designed to work with this radiator and was made by @mrk5. It works great.

Also, two relays, one for each fan, 40A each relay.

Thanks so much. Is one of those your ac condenser? Smaller than a factory unit?

 

[folkenheath]

Thanks so much. Is one of those your ac condenser? Smaller than a factory unit?

The black cooler in the drivers front is a huge trans cooler. It's the largest cooler I can get to fit in the squares in front of the radiator. (67,000 BTU/hr)

The factory AC condenser is silver, it's between that trans cooler and the radiator.

The radiator is aftermarket. The dual 1.25" core aluminum is higher capacity than a 4 core brass. This particular one has a trans and oil cooler built in, but I did not use them. I don't like them. You really only need to warm the trans fluid in extremely cold climates, and I live in WI, which can be cold, but not arctic cold. The rest of the time, the internal trans cooler just warms the trans fluid up to engine temp, so it's hotter when you get to a high load situation and then it gets even hotter yet, likely too hot.

A trans does not have combustion byproducts, so you don't need to worry about getting the oil hot enough to clear out the condensation moisture like with engine oil. If engine oil is consistenly ran too cool, such as frequent short trips, it can get milky residue in the engine in not too long of time.

 

[Chris Ziemer]

Dont buy those.
Your money would be better spent on a better water pump and thermostat. Hood vents are also great if you’re willing and like the look.

I just noticed, Mr. September! Nicely done. Celebrity in the house!

 

[Chris Ziemer]

The black cooler in the drivers front is a huge trans cooler. It's the largest cooler I can get to fit in the squares in front of the radiator. (67,000 BTU/hr)

The factory AC condenser is silver, it's between that trans cooler and the radiator.

The radiator is aftermarket. The dual 1.25" core aluminum is higher capacity than a 4 core brass. This particular one has a trans and oil cooler built in, but I did not use them. I don't like them. You really only need to warm the trans fluid in extremely cold climates, and I live in WI, which can be cold, but not arctic cold. The rest of the time, the internal trans cooler just warms the trans fluid up to engine temp, so it's hotter when you get to a high load situation and then it gets even hotter yet, likely too hot.

A trans does not have combustion byproducts, so you don't need to worry about getting the oil hot enough to clear out the condensation moisture like with engine oil. If engine oil is consistenly ran too cool, such as frequent short trips, it can get milky in not too long of time.

Ahh, I see that now. Well if it’s determined that I actually do need a new set up, be a great way to go. Thank you!

 

[folkenheath]

Ahh, I see that now. Well if it’s determined that I actually do need a new set up, be a great way to go. Thank you!

One other thing to add the guys have mentioned, I only run all brass/copper high flow thermostats. I never run the factory replacement stuff, it's junk and not reliable even out of the box. I can get the Stewart or Mr Gasket units, Robert Shaw are good too. Some have little bypass holes for certain applications, some don't. They look like this...

Much more reliable than the standard replacement parts. I run a 180 if I need a good a heater in the winter, if a really good heater is not needed, I run a 160, or even no thermostat if it's just a summer ride or a street/strip car. If you have some factory emissions computer you may need to run the factory temp of 195 or higher.

 

[Babaganoosh]

To answer the poll question, IMO the best spot to put the temp sender is in the intake manifold between the thermostat and the heads. Not on top the thermostat, because if it is closed it may not be seeing actual temp.

In the front of the head is fine too, I don't like the back of the head as much because the water heats more traveling through the head. So usually the heads are symmetrical so one side the temp port is more forward than the other side. But then the intake is completely after the head on the exit of the engine but before the thermostat, even better. Plus its not right by the hot exhaust flange.

As for the best cooling setup, I agree with the guys, the engine and water pump have to be in proper working order first, you can't easily cool an engine that is plugged up or not running right or the timing is way off or it's super lean, etc. I like Edelbrock water pumps for reliability, flow, and weight savings.

After that, I believe I have made the best cooling setup available. It's a dual 1.25" core aluminum radiator, in the diesel size, even wider than a big block radiator, and I put dual 16" SPAL fans with it, not dual 12 or 14, but the larger fans, 16-17" OD, they will only fit on the diesel size core. And the dual 1.25" aluminum is better than a 5 core brass would be for cooling capacity. I found one that fits.

I've tested fans for flow, free flow and through a radiator, SPAL is consistently higher flow than many others of the same size, but they also sell many different flow ratings for the same size fan. You want the billy bad boy model. I get them through my distributor.

Also, separate trans cooler, especially in warm climates. I use a huge derale unit.

The fan shroud I designed to work with this radiator and was made by @mrk5. It works great.

Also, two relays, one for each fan, 40A each relay.

I don’t have a lot of miles on this setup but it keeps it nice and cool here in Arizona.

 

[folkenheath]

According to the guy, all carbs run rich, causing less than peak performance and eventually, premature engine wear. But! If your engine isn’t tight (vacuum, exhaust), it throws it off.
Mine was reading in the 17’s, so I contacted the dude and he’s like “you have an exhaust leak”. Uh. No I don’t. Well, took it to my exhaust guy and sure enough, a donut leak.
I just put mine in and haven’t messed with the custom settings yet.

"All carbs run rich" is definitely not true. I've seen many lean carbs, and many factory engines want more fuel to make more power and not best MPG. Though you can tune for both depending on how heavy your foot is.

Now that you say that, it doesn’t sound like the secondaries are opening. I remember once I had to bore out the 4 hole gasket b/c the blades got caught on it. Will be a great thing to check as well, thx.

I have questions, you said you have a Qjet, which is a spread bore carb flange, and these carb cheaters I have never heard all look to use a square bore plate under it. How is that working? What intake manifold do you have? Adaptors? Is this why the secondaries got stuck, and maybe can't open? This sounds like a potential problem. I would get rid of the carb cheater vacuum leak, and maybe just use the 02 reading from it to tune your carb manually.

Plus verify true TDC for accurate timing checks. What is your WOT timing? 8 initial sounds low to me, I would never set it that low, but what matters more for power is WOT timing.

 

[Chris Ziemer]

"All carbs run rich" is definitely not true. I've seen many lean carbs, and many factory engines want more fuel to make more power and not best MPG. Though you can tune for both depending on how heavy your foot is.



I have questions, you said you have a Qjet, which is a spread bore carb flange, and these carb cheaters I have never heard all look to use a square bore plate under it. How is that working? What intake manifold do you have? Adaptors? Is this why the secondaries got stuck, and maybe can't open? This sounds like a potential problem. I would get rid of the carb cheater vacuum leak, and maybe just use the 02 reading from it to tune your carb manually.

Plus verify true TDC for accurate timing checks. What is your WOT timing? 8 initial sounds low to me, I would never set it that low, but what matters more for power is WOT timing.

Hey, thank you. This carb cheater is something new but it does seem precisely accurate. There is an in cab display that displays exactly how much vacuum it’s letting by the check valves for loss of a better term. When my carburetor is reading, lean, well, pretty much all the time here in the valley, it’s not doing anything. When I was in the mountains, however, and the air fuel mixture changed because of elevation, I can see it working. It responds faster than my eyes can keep up with it.

Regarding the base plate, they have a nice spread bore base plate for spread bore carburetors. My secondaries are working manually. No hiccups. And I can see them opening fully. In the past, I have had issues with aftermarket gaskets being slightly too small for the blades.

Regardless, when the carb cheater is not allowing vacuum by to even fuel mixture, it should be equivalent to having those ports blocked off with vacuum caps. In my case, I confirmed that with my vacuum gauge and that there was no change in vacuum at idle with the carb cheater hooked up or with the vacuum cap on the base plate.

In the end, I’m not saying that this carb cheater was a good idea or a bad idea. I really don’t have enough information yet. But I like to support small businesses and this guy seems to have had a great idea, whether or not, it’s actually helpful in the end.

I do tend to agree with you that eight before is probably way out of line. I think somewhere in the realm of 12 to 16 before it’s probably going to work better. It’s with a mechanic now so we’ll see what happens.

 

[folkenheath]

Hey, thank you. This carb cheater is something new but it does seem precisely accurate. There is an in cab display that displays exactly how much vacuum it’s letting by the check valves for loss of a better term. When my carburetor is reading, lean, well, pretty much all the time here in the valley, it’s not doing anything. When I was in the mountains, however, and the air fuel mixture changed because of elevation, I can see it working. It responds faster than my eyes can keep up with it.

Regarding the base plate, they have a nice spread bore base plate for spread bore carburetors. My secondaries are working manually. No hiccups. And I can see them opening fully. In the past, I have had issues with aftermarket gaskets being slightly too small for the blades.

Regardless, when the carb cheater is not allowing vacuum by to even fuel mixture, it should be equivalent to having those ports blocked off with vacuum caps. In my case, I confirmed that with my vacuum gauge and that there was no change in vacuum at idle with the carb cheater hooked up or with the vacuum cap on the base plate.

In the end, I’m not saying that this carb cheater was a good idea or a bad idea. I really don’t have enough information yet. But I like to support small businesses and this guy seems to have had a great idea, whether or not, it’s actually helpful in the end.

I do tend to agree with you that eight before is probably way out of line. I think somewhere in the realm of 12 to 16 before it’s probably going to work better. It’s with a mechanic now so we’ll see what happens.

You answered all my concerns there and I agree with what you said. I do feel like it's such a small leak it would only have much effect at very low throttle openings. If you are at full throttle with no vacuum it can't really change anything as the main signal to the carb then is the air velocity over the venturi. Theoretically the air that enters bypassing the venturi could make it go leaner but I think the amount of air in that scenario is miniscule compared to the throttle bores.

Low load with different weather and altitude it makes sense if you tune the carb rich enough for its richest conditions that it could pull some out at part throttle. I did not see a spread bore model on their site but I didn't have much time to look.

As for timing, I would start with 34 at WOT, without vacuum advance, and see where the idle ends up, then also hook the vacuum advance back up, to full manifold vacuum, not ported. Unless you need to keep it ported for emissions reasons.

If you want to change the other parameters other than WOT you need to change springs, weights, vacuum advance can, etc.

 

[folkenheath]

To be clear, disconnect the vacuum advance, raise the RPM up to 3 - 4000, and then check the timing. Set it at 34. If the timing is still climbing at 4K RPM then I would put lighter springs in the mechanical advance. Don't set it to 34 at 3K if its still going to climb higher, that would not be good, you need to confirm where stops climbing.

When done, recheck and note the timing at idle. Then reconnect the vacuum advance and note the timing at idle and part throttle 3K for reference. With these numbers you have the curve and can modify from there.

A digital timing light is a big help, or timing tape if the balancer isn't marked.

This is also assuming the timing pointer is correct, this can be verified with a piston stop in the #1 spark plug hole and the proper procedure.

 

[Chris Ziemer]

Yeah, man, I was thinking about it after I wrote that post that the carb cheater does seem a little like a gimmick to me too. And if my carb is running as lean as it seems, virtually not needed for me at all.
But I’m into it now and may as well see if it works.
Having said that, if it gives me even a small reason to ditch it, it’ll be on the shelf, faster than you can imagine.

Thanks for the WOT numbers, I think if we set it at 12, will be right in that ballpark. I’ll let you know what he comes up with.