the baldness is visible. pic link currently working.
although technically it looks like you're just trying to keep the tube from floating away
Can't do much about my ugly mug... Hopefully the beauty of the truck distracts people.
-G
CK5
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'72 K5 - Greg's @MightAsWellK5 Build
- Thread starter Greg72
- Start date
This is the build description. I will improve this later. (GB)
Can't do much about my ugly mug... Hopefully the beauty of the truck distracts people.
-G
You think this build is good, you should hear me sing.......
Mike (NorCal69) gets the glory for weekend progress... many prouds go out to him for getting that bumper/winch setup finished and lookin' hella-tight!!!
I did get out in the shop yesterday. I'm still feeling a bit under the weather so the progress wasn't as good as I had hoped.... only managed to snap one photo:
MY 11TH PHB BRACKET SET.....
Basically, I'm in the final iterations of trying to negotiate each part of the front suspension into it's final position, and double-check all the little details to make sure I've got things as perfect as I can make them.
The main thing I was focusing on yesterday was trying to get the PHB and draglinks 100% parallel to each other (and at the same overall lengths)... over the past few weeks the PHB has gone from 41" long, to 40-1/4" to 43" long, and now to a (hopefully) final value of 42-1/4". The new PHB brackets are a result of lengthening that PHB and needing to push out the mount a couple more inches on the frame side. I'd planned to go from 41" to 43" but it turned out that the axle ended up pushed 3/4" away from it's centerline (toward the PS) so instead of building the 12th set of PHB brackets... I decided to just shorten up the PHB itself and hope for the best.
The main factor driving me to increase the length of the PHB is actually the draglink. Since I want it to be the same overall length as the PHB, I really need to maximize it's length so that I can get full lock-to-lock steering... and that takes a pretty long draglink to accomplish.
An additional puzzler is that the PHB angle these days is around 3.6* (sloped toward the PS).... and for minimal bumpsteer the draglink needs to have that same angle. At the start of the day, the draglink was around 5.5*.... not bad, but certainly not "perfect" either. Since I'm constrained on the steering knuckle side and can't really move that mounting point at all, the only way to take some of the angle out of the draglink was to lower the entire idler pivot where it mounts on the frame.
Fortunately, since I only need to change the angle by a small amount it doesn't require me to make grotesque changes on the idler height. I dropped it by around 1/2" and that seemed to get me in the ballpark... (I'm within a couple tenths of a degree now).
The final challenge was to choose a final steering box position that would allow the linkages to all work properly without hitting each other or binding up during hard-left or hard-right positions. Since I was pretty confident about the box location, I drilled through the frame and mounted ONLY the top bolt (this box has a single upper hole, and two lower holes). This allowed me to get rid of my ratchet-strap mounting setup and had the side-benefit of allowing me to rotate the steering box wherever I wanted using that upper bolt as a pivot. As I connected the small stub linkage between the pitman arm and the idler I could check the clearances, and if things were binding I would just rotate the steering box upward a few degrees until I got the clearance I needed..... then cranked the bolt down to lock it in place.
From a steering perspective, things are now REALLY close to finished. I still need to do some frame notching (and re-inforcement) so that the idler can swing completely for hard-right turns...... even with a 41.25" draglink the idler swings pretty far underneath the DS framerail so clearance is an issue. I re-ran some calcs this morning and it looks like the idler bracket needs to come down about 1/2" more to give me perfect matching PHB & draglink angles... so hopefully I can take care of that tonight.
Ultimately, that will be a huge step. All the steering components (including the steering box) will be in permanent positions and once I get the steering to go lock-to-lock at ride height (which is where I'm working now).... I will have to hold my breath and bring everything up to full-bump to see if it all still works there too...... if I haven't passed-out from holding my breath after all that, I'll also need to start doing the "one wheel up, one wheel down" type tests including the full-lock steering at each of those positions. As I've gone through the last few weeks of iterations on the front suspension, I have slowly been locking-down dimensions and at this point there are very few things that can even be changed to accomodate a clearance issue.... so the stress level is sure to be high over the next few days as I begin to do the full-scale cycling tests.
-G
Awesome build! Took me about a month to read and catch up, can't wait to see it rolling out
Mike (NorCal69) gets the glory for weekend progress... many prouds go out to him for getting that bumper/winch setup finished and lookin' hella-tight!!!
-G
Thanks Greg on the winch/bumper props.
It's pretty fun going back and forth all weekend with ya on the progress. Kinda keeps each other going. MY 11TH PHB BRACKET SET.....
-G
That's not the way that you put it when you told me you were on your 11th ________ bracket.
That's not the way that you put it when you told me you were on your 11th ________ bracket.
Hmmmm..... Must have been one of those "autocorrect" mistakes on my phone.... I was trying to say "funky brackets"
The cycling has begun, and I'm quite happy with what I'm seeing so far. As expected, there have been numerous tweaks to the idler area so that there is adequate clearance for that stub link under different axle positions. I am finding that the steering box wants to be a lot more vertical than originally expected. It should help me to get a steering linkage down to it more easily though...
The only really difficult problem is a collision between the draglink and the axle-side PHB heim under full-lock right turns and certain axle positions. Normally the draglink swings harmlessly underneath that heim, but there are occasions where the draglink ends up about 3/8" too high and won't make it underneath. Ultimately, I think the solution will be to put a 12 -15* bend in the draglink (which will match the bend I've already got in the PHB link). That should drop the link just enough to clear that interference, and should get rid of some of the angularity in the draglink heim (PS) when that side is stuffed and the DS is drooping out.
We'll see....
-G
Here are some photos to illustrate what I spoke about in my last post...
A neat shot showing how tight the clearances really get when building a front link suspension.... the tierod normally is nowhere near the PHB bracket (and heim) but when the wheels are turned (especially with Ackerman steering) that tie rod sweeps toward the PHB heim and ends up underneath it. This is also partly due to the caster in the front end. As the steering rotates the tie rod's vertical position drops substantially.... if it didn't it would totally collide with that PHB heim!
Another view of that same area from a slightly different angle... normally that tie rod is well ahead of the PHB, but you can REALLY see how much it swings backward in this photo.
When the drivers side is drooping, the PS tie rod heim gets quite a bit of angularity in it.... (the bracket was actually hitting the heim until I trimmed it back a little)
Putting the bend in the draglink should take care a lot of that angularity as well as providing much needed clearance between the tierod and the PS PHB heim..... you can probably look at the following photo and imagine how the tierod will interfere once the steering in cranked hard right...
Finally, here's a shot of how the steering box looks these days (no more ratchet straps!).... it sits a lot more vertical than when I first started but it is necessary to get the clearance I need, especially between the two heims on the idler bracket under hard right turns!
.... tonight, I'll see if I can put a bend in that draglink and re-assemble things to check my clearances again. It's just about time to build a clean version of the idler bracketry also.
-G
A neat shot showing how tight the clearances really get when building a front link suspension.... the tierod normally is nowhere near the PHB bracket (and heim) but when the wheels are turned (especially with Ackerman steering) that tie rod sweeps toward the PHB heim and ends up underneath it. This is also partly due to the caster in the front end. As the steering rotates the tie rod's vertical position drops substantially.... if it didn't it would totally collide with that PHB heim!
Another view of that same area from a slightly different angle... normally that tie rod is well ahead of the PHB, but you can REALLY see how much it swings backward in this photo.
When the drivers side is drooping, the PS tie rod heim gets quite a bit of angularity in it.... (the bracket was actually hitting the heim until I trimmed it back a little)
Putting the bend in the draglink should take care a lot of that angularity as well as providing much needed clearance between the tierod and the PS PHB heim..... you can probably look at the following photo and imagine how the tierod will interfere once the steering in cranked hard right...
Finally, here's a shot of how the steering box looks these days (no more ratchet straps!).... it sits a lot more vertical than when I first started but it is necessary to get the clearance I need, especially between the two heims on the idler bracket under hard right turns!
.... tonight, I'll see if I can put a bend in that draglink and re-assemble things to check my clearances again. It's just about time to build a clean version of the idler bracketry also.
-G
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Well that turned out to be simple.....
A 15* bend in the draglink completely resolved the interference issues. In fact, I probably could have used a shallower bend and still got the same result...
Cycling tests are going well. As you can see I installed a 14" mockup strut to get a very accurate sense of where 8" of droop (maximum) really is, and also where 6" of bump (maximum) is also. In this photo, I've got the axle sitting on a couple scraps of lumber at a height that represents maximum droop on both sides.
There were no new problem areas found last night. Every position I tested allowed for full lock-to-lock steering with no binding or collisions. That is great news! If this kind of good luck continues I'm going to have to push this truck out into the sunshine this weekend.
-G
A 15* bend in the draglink completely resolved the interference issues.
In fact, I probably could have used a shallower bend and still got the same result... Cycling tests are going well. As you can see I installed a 14" mockup strut to get a very accurate sense of where 8" of droop (maximum) really is, and also where 6" of bump (maximum) is also. In this photo, I've got the axle sitting on a couple scraps of lumber at a height that represents maximum droop on both sides.
There were no new problem areas found last night. Every position I tested allowed for full lock-to-lock steering with no binding or collisions. That is great news! If this kind of good luck continues I'm going to have to push this truck out into the sunshine this weekend.
-G
*happy dance*
....and for all the haters out there who said I'd have tire rubbing issues.
I've got more than 1/8" to spare!!!
Here's one final shot from last night.... just a fun shot that shows the suspension at full droop and makes it a bit easier to see the steering linkages and panhard bar setup:
-G
I've got more than 1/8" to spare!!!
Here's one final shot from last night.... just a fun shot that shows the suspension at full droop and makes it a bit easier to see the steering linkages and panhard bar setup:
-G
that must be a great feeling!
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So awesome! Can't wait to see it in the sunlight!!!
Yes!
Thanks!
I can't wait either!
I've got to be careful and check the "little things" before the excitement gets the better of me.
Case in point:
The other night I was working on some suspension cycling and had the axle maybe 18" off the ground (PS) and was drooping-out the driver side. All of the sudden, the passenger side axle came crashing down to the ground without warning and broke my floor!
Turns out, when I tacked the lower strut plate onto that side I only put two small welds on the outside edge just to keep it in place so it wouldn't slide around.... as I started hooking up chains and lifting the axle I didn't go back an throw a few heavier tack welds on it so that it could actually support the axle weight. Fortunately, I wasn't anywhere near it when it fell and it didn't actually do any damage... there is a minor ding in the rotor's edge, but nothing that will cause issues (I was planning to have the rotors turned before final assembly anyway)... it did serve as a somber reminder that even though I am pretty methodical about how I work, there is always room for improvement and accidents can happen to anyone.
On that note, I remembered that there really isn't a whole lot holding my front portal boxes to my backing plates these days....maybe 2 bolts (out of 8) per side. The bolt order from McMaster-Carr was a disappointment since they sent me Chinese bolts (their fault) and they weren't fully-threaded the way I needed them to be (my fault). As I've since learned, if you want a fully threaded bolt you need to order what's called a "tap bolt"... I climbed on BoltDepot.com yesterday afternoon and ordered up a full set of M10 x 1.5 x 70mm tap bolts (Qty 16) and lucky for me, this place is really close to my house... UPS tracking shows that they will arrive today!!
Having nice long bolts will allow me to fully-assemble the portal/backing plate and secure the steering arm plates that have been added to the mix. Once it's time to put the full weight of the truck on the axles (engine/trans, etc) they should be ready to handle it..... don't need to have any more "surprises" like the portal boxes snapping off and shooting across the room, while the entire front end of the truck comes crashing down to the ground. 
Finally, based on the mockup of the strut body a few days ago I've decided to bite the bullet and order up a pair of the 14" ORIs now. The lead time is usually several weeks long, so the sooner I do it the better. Unfortunately, the guy I usually order from (blacksheep10 on Pirate4x4) seems to be unavailable lately.... so I may need to find a new supplier. Anyone know a good vendor who can help?
Maybe I should just call up ORI directly and try to work some of that magic that Lawrence has been performing with his "Dante's Build" thread...... maybe they'd like to "sponsor" me for a couple of struts to move this thing along???
-G
That would be awesome if ORI sponsored you!!!
My first set of ORIs I got from Blacksheep too, my second pair I got from pringle fab (iispms) on pbb.
What I would do is go to the suspension vendor forum on pirate and search ORI and send each one a pm to get the best price
Not sure if this link will work: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/search.php?searchid=25410658
What I would do is go to the suspension vendor forum on pirate and search ORI and send each one a pm to get the best price
Not sure if this link will work: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/search.php?searchid=25410658
2013.09.30 - UPDATE! - AIN'T NO SUNSHINE..... 
Sorry guys..... no sunshine photos yet.
I really wanted to get the truck on it's own 4 wheels and rolled out of the garage this weekend, but it wasn't meant to be. As I looked at the amount of missing bolts on the front suspension, and the frame-side link mounts being held up by ratchet straps (rear susp.) and all-thread (front susp.) it became clear that I'd either have to rush a lot of things all day long just to get that photo....or risk having something go horribly wrong by not addressing all the areas that really aren't safe yet. I decided to play it safe and leave that moment for next weekend instead (maybe).
For now, the pressing issue is getting the upper strut mounts in place for the front end. Since I don't have the real ORIs yet, it makes things a bit more difficult... but I still had my "Angry Yo! ORI mock up struts" from the rear suspension build so I started off with that since they are light and I can bang them around without concern for damage.
I built a small bracket that located the upper strut directly underneath one of the engine cradle tubes. The idea was to build it like a small "saddle" so that it could slide along the angled tube and let me adjust the height of that mounting hole by a couple of inches as needed later on....
Here's the bracket tacked in place on the engine cradle. You can see how the position could be adjusted simply by sliding that bracket.
Once, it seemed like I had everything shaped and trimmed properly to allow for adequate clearance between the strut and the frame as well as the tab clearances around the mounting bolts, I installed one of the 16" ORIs to take a look. (Remember, these are 2" too long, so the amount of shaft that shows at ride height is going to appear small)
As seems to be the protocol in the Greg72 garage.... the first bracket always ends up being scrapped almost immediately. In this case, I didn't like the way the upper part of the bracket looked relative to the forces that would be applied by the strut when weight was on it. It just seemed like it was an awkward angle that could be improved... and spread the loading out more cleanly. So I quickly moved to "version 2" of the strut bracket.
This one follows the bend profile of the engine cradle tube, and has a much nicer aesthetic look... and it carries the loading of the strut up into that upper cage node more cleanly, which was a huge plus also!
Feeling confident, I took my plate over to the drivers side and tacked it in place so that I could quickly mount up the second strut and get a good look at the overall layout: VICTORY!!!
.....or is it? It's funny sometimes how quickly the mood can change from happiness to depression just by changing your camera position a few feet.
FAIL:
Yep. The steering column dumps out directly behind the strut and will make it impossible for me to connect a steering linkage of any kind (well, maybe a chain-drive setup?).... so it looks like even the "V2" bracket design is a failure as well.
The problem is that I was going to a nice simple way to suport the upper strut mount, and lining it up directly underneath an existing engine cradle tube made it REALLY simple to build. Unfortunately, it forced me to "lay back" the strut more than I probably should have and on the driver's side it ended up eating into all the critical space I'll need for steering linkage. (It's bad enough that this truck won't have brakes, I can't give up steering too!)
So... by the end of the day, I had to come up with a new strategy. It looks a lot like my original strategy which was to locate the upper strut mount somewhere within the engine cradle "triangle" area and build a small hoop that bridges across two of the tubes to locate the strut.
The result is clear when you look at it from a front view. The strut is much more vertical in both axes, which totally opens up the space around the steering column area.... this will be a much more workable solution.
In retrospect, I suppose this should have felt like a really worthless day in the garage since I really didn't accomplish anything that actually will stay welded to the truck. But for some reason seeing the struts mounted on the axle (even though they were wrong) still felt like a small victory to me..... I'll spend some evenings this week out in the garage and hopefully get myself back on track with these mounts. Hopefully that will clear my schedule for next weekend so that I can focus on building more solid crossmembers and doing a complete "bolt check" on the truck in preparation for it's big 30-foot "drive" out of the garage!
-G
Sorry guys..... no sunshine photos yet.
I really wanted to get the truck on it's own 4 wheels and rolled out of the garage this weekend, but it wasn't meant to be. As I looked at the amount of missing bolts on the front suspension, and the frame-side link mounts being held up by ratchet straps (rear susp.) and all-thread (front susp.) it became clear that I'd either have to rush a lot of things all day long just to get that photo....or risk having something go horribly wrong by not addressing all the areas that really aren't safe yet. I decided to play it safe and leave that moment for next weekend instead (maybe).
For now, the pressing issue is getting the upper strut mounts in place for the front end. Since I don't have the real ORIs yet, it makes things a bit more difficult... but I still had my "Angry Yo! ORI mock up struts" from the rear suspension build so I started off with that since they are light and I can bang them around without concern for damage.
I built a small bracket that located the upper strut directly underneath one of the engine cradle tubes. The idea was to build it like a small "saddle" so that it could slide along the angled tube and let me adjust the height of that mounting hole by a couple of inches as needed later on....
Here's the bracket tacked in place on the engine cradle. You can see how the position could be adjusted simply by sliding that bracket.
Once, it seemed like I had everything shaped and trimmed properly to allow for adequate clearance between the strut and the frame as well as the tab clearances around the mounting bolts, I installed one of the 16" ORIs to take a look. (Remember, these are 2" too long, so the amount of shaft that shows at ride height is going to appear small)
As seems to be the protocol in the Greg72 garage.... the first bracket always ends up being scrapped almost immediately. In this case, I didn't like the way the upper part of the bracket looked relative to the forces that would be applied by the strut when weight was on it. It just seemed like it was an awkward angle that could be improved... and spread the loading out more cleanly. So I quickly moved to "version 2" of the strut bracket.
This one follows the bend profile of the engine cradle tube, and has a much nicer aesthetic look... and it carries the loading of the strut up into that upper cage node more cleanly, which was a huge plus also!
Feeling confident, I took my plate over to the drivers side and tacked it in place so that I could quickly mount up the second strut and get a good look at the overall layout: VICTORY!!!
.....or is it? It's funny sometimes how quickly the mood can change from happiness to depression just by changing your camera position a few feet.
FAIL:
Yep. The steering column dumps out directly behind the strut and will make it impossible for me to connect a steering linkage of any kind (well, maybe a chain-drive setup?
).... so it looks like even the "V2" bracket design is a failure as well. The problem is that I was going to a nice simple way to suport the upper strut mount, and lining it up directly underneath an existing engine cradle tube made it REALLY simple to build. Unfortunately, it forced me to "lay back" the strut more than I probably should have and on the driver's side it ended up eating into all the critical space I'll need for steering linkage. (It's bad enough that this truck won't have brakes, I can't give up steering too!
)So... by the end of the day, I had to come up with a new strategy. It looks a lot like my original strategy which was to locate the upper strut mount somewhere within the engine cradle "triangle" area and build a small hoop that bridges across two of the tubes to locate the strut.
The result is clear when you look at it from a front view. The strut is much more vertical in both axes, which totally opens up the space around the steering column area.... this will be a much more workable solution.
In retrospect, I suppose this should have felt like a really worthless day in the garage since I really didn't accomplish anything that actually will stay welded to the truck. But for some reason seeing the struts mounted on the axle (even though they were wrong) still felt like a small victory to me..... I'll spend some evenings this week out in the garage and hopefully get myself back on track with these mounts. Hopefully that will clear my schedule for next weekend so that I can focus on building more solid crossmembers and doing a complete "bolt check" on the truck in preparation for it's big 30-foot "drive" out of the garage!
-G
Worthwhile day in my mind I like any type of strut shock etc to be as vertical as possible. In your case leaned back and in just a touch but not as far as you had them.
I'd hardly call the day worthless. Look at the flip side, you ruled out two ways to mount the struts.
